Navigating High Conflict Divorce: Insights from Expert Lisa Johnson
Lisa Johnson, the esteemed founder of Been There Got Out and an expert in high conflict divorce, elucidates the complexities surrounding contentious separations in this profound discussion. Central to our conversation is her assertion that high conflict divorces can be mitigated if both parties engage competent attorneys who prioritize collaboration over confrontation. Through her personal experiences and professional insights, Lisa emphasizes the importance of strategic communication and the need for individuals to recognize and navigate the emotional tumult associated with such situations. We delve into the nuanced dynamics of co-parenting amidst conflict, highlighting the detrimental effects of using children as pawns during disputes. Lisa’s innovative approach not only provides invaluable guidance for individuals facing high conflict divorces but also serves as an essential resource for legal professionals seeking to foster healthier, more amicable outcomes.
A compelling dialogue unfolds as Lisa Johnson, the esteemed founder of Been There Got Out, reveals the intricacies of navigating high conflict divorces in this enlightening podcast episode. With a wealth of experience as a high conflict divorce expert, Lisa shares her personal journey, marked by a tumultuous marriage fraught with unexpected challenges. Her account of discovering her ex-husband's double life and the subsequent legal battles serves as a poignant backdrop to the discussion.
Throughout the episode, Lisa emphasizes the critical importance of understanding the dynamics of high conflict relationships, particularly for those engaged in the divorce process. She underscores how the legal landscape can exacerbate tensions and offers insight into the role that attorneys play in either mitigating or escalating conflict. Drawing upon her expertise, Lisa provides invaluable strategies for individuals navigating similar situations, highlighting the need for effective communication and strategic thinking.
This episode serves as both a cautionary tale and a beacon of hope, illustrating that with the right tools and mindset, it is possible to emerge from the depths of high conflict divorce with resilience and empowerment. In this episode, the conversation delves deeply into the psychological and emotional ramifications of high conflict divorces, as Lisa Johnson shares her insights as the founder of Been There Got Out. The dialogue traverses the complexities of legal proceedings, emotional tolls, and the often-overlooked impact on children caught in the crossfire. Lisa recounts her personal experiences, revealing the shocking realities of her own divorce, which transformed her understanding of conflict dynamics. She candidly discusses the moment her attorney predicted a protracted legal battle, a stark contrast to her initial expectations of an amicable separation. This revelation sets the stage for a broader discussion on the indicators of high conflict divorce, including personality disorders and domestic violence, and how these factors can complicate legal proceedings.
Lisa's expertise shines through as she offers listeners practical advice on how to navigate the treacherous waters of high conflict divorce, emphasizing the necessity for emotional intelligence and strategic planning in interactions with attorneys and ex-partners alike. Listeners are invited into a profound exploration of high conflict divorce through the lens of Lisa Johnson, a recognized expert in the field. The episode captures the essence of her journey, from being an unsuspecting spouse to becoming an advocate for others facing similar trials. Lisa recounts her experiences with the legal system, highlighting the often hidden factors that lead to drawn-out and contentious divorces. Her candid narrative reveals the turmoil that can arise when one partner is embroiled in deceit and manipulation, ultimately leading to a transformative awakening.
Throughout the discussion, Lisa articulates the importance of identifying red flags and understanding the behaviors of high conflict individuals. She provides actionable strategies for those embroiled in high conflict situations, encouraging them to adopt a proactive and informed approach to their legal battles. This episode not only serves as a source of practical guidance but also as an inspiring testament to the strength and resilience of individuals who refuse to be defined by their circumstances.
Takeaways:
- High conflict divorces often escalate due to lawyers who cannot effectively manage their clients' emotions.
- Clients experiencing high conflict divorces frequently lack awareness of the manipulative behaviors of their partners.
- Effective communication strategies can significantly reduce conflict and help navigate high conflict divorce situations.
- It is crucial for clients to recognize the importance of being proactive advocates for themselves in the legal process.
- Lawyers can prevent high conflict situations by collaborating effectively and maintaining a focus on the best interests of the children involved.
- Clients should be educated on the potential long-term impacts of their divorce on their children to promote healthier co-parenting relationships.
Companies mentioned in this episode:
- Been There Got Out
- Help Lawyer Network
- Legal Al
- Legal Owl
- Amicable Divorce Network
- High Conflict Institute
- Bill Eddy
Transcript
If someone is dealing with a high conflict partner, that it's going to turn into one of those bad cases, a high conflict divorce.
Speaker A:And she said that is absolutely not true because if you have two lawyers that can work together, a good lawyer can completely prevent this from happening.
Speaker B:You've entered Legal Al where sharp legal minds meet the power of Strategic Intuitive Intelligence and inner awareness.
Speaker B:Hosted by someone that is a veteran, an author, a and as an individual experienced in specialist security operations, Strategic Intuitive intelligence and transformational psychology.
Speaker B:This is not your typical legal podcast.
Speaker B:We explore what most lawyers never say out loud.
Speaker B:Burnout, grief, inner dissonance and what it really takes to sustain a legal career with clarity, purpose and personal alignment alongside powerful solo insights.
Speaker B:You'll hear thought provoking conversations with members of the Help Lawyer Network, lawyers, legal support professionals and expert witnesses sharing real stories from the front lines.
Speaker B:This is the space where law meets what's rarely talked about.
Speaker B:Welcome to Legal Howl, where wisdom meets the law and strategic intuitive intelligence guides the way.
Speaker C:Good morning, good evening, good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.
Speaker C:This is John here.
Speaker C:This is the Legal Owl and this episode today I'm very excited to speak with my guest who deals with divorce attorneys, family lawyers, and this episode is kind of different because we're talking more about the existential crisis that happens in divorce and how it affects not only families and people going through it, but also lawyers.
Speaker C:My guest today is a wonderful person, Lisa, from Being There got out, as you can see in the screen.
Speaker C:Lisa, how are you doing?
Speaker C:Welcome to the Legal Owl or Legal owl.
Speaker A:I'm thrilled to be here.
Speaker A:Thank you so much for hosting me.
Speaker C:John, It's a pleasure to have you and I'm really excited to talk about your work because it's unusual.
Speaker C:You're not a lawyer, but you've changed the law in many respects, which is really exciting.
Speaker C:You run an organization, been there, you've got a book, you've got a new book coming out.
Speaker C:We're going to talk all about that as well.
Speaker C:But I want to go back a little bit before we go into how you got into this particular work.
Speaker C:Let's talk a little bit of what you went through that was the catalyst to you being the catalyst for change in the legal industry.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Never planned it, never dreamt of being a high conflict divorce strategist and changing laws.
Speaker A:But I was in a relationship, a marriage, for nearly 20 years with my ex.
Speaker A:We didn't really fight and I thought that of course things weren't perfect, but that things were pretty good.
Speaker A: And then in: Speaker A:And then once I started the divorce process and finally talked to an attorney within 20 minutes, the attorney said, yours is going to be one of the really bad ones.
Speaker A:And I was astonished because I thought it was going to be amicable.
Speaker A:We had already agreed I'd taken all this time.
Speaker A:And later when I was writing the book, I asked my attorney, how did you know?
Speaker A:But he was right.
Speaker A:And it did take a year.
Speaker A:And instead of costing what I was terrified was $10,000, it cost $100,000, which I always say I'm going to be paying back forever.
Speaker A:And it basically also cost about 10 years in court because at the end of that year, just before we settled, my lawyer said, your ex is not going to comply with this agreement and you cannot afford me anymore.
Speaker A:You're going to have to go pro se or represent yourself.
Speaker A:I'll be in the background, but if you use me or probably most lawyers, he's going to financially decimate you.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:So that was the beginning of my journey as a pro se or self represented litigant.
Speaker A: e I filed again at the end of: Speaker A:And it took a year to get the first big set of orders post judgment.
Speaker C:That's absolutely fascinating that you ended up representing yourself because most people would absolutely be terrified at going through that, especially when you've been dealing with a lawyer.
Speaker C:There's something that you mentioned that I want to jump back because you said at the moment when your lawyer had turned around and said to you, this is going to be one of the worst cases.
Speaker C:How did that make you feel at that moment?
Speaker A:Shocked.
Speaker A:I thought he has to be wrong.
Speaker A:Why?
Speaker A:I mean, I always thought that my ex had been a good person who had done some bad things.
Speaker A:And I thought that he would remain a good person.
Speaker A:I thought that he would remain an involved parent.
Speaker A:It was completely the opposite.
Speaker A:But my lawyer was absolutely right.
Speaker A:And later when I interviewed him for the book, and I don't know if you want to get into that now, but we came up with a list.
Speaker C:Want to get not know.
Speaker C:But I do want to get into this.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:Of like a few factors of indicators of high conflict divorce that I now realize my case involved that I.
Speaker A:Because I had no idea what I was dealing with at the time.
Speaker A:Again, I thought he was a good person who had done some bad things.
Speaker A:I Didn't understand domestic violence.
Speaker A:I didn't understand personality disorders.
Speaker A:It was only later that I realized.
Speaker A:And one in two people in abusive relationships have no idea what's going on.
Speaker C:No, they don't.
Speaker C:I say mentioned that your ex partner led a double life in.
Speaker C:I don't want to go into that totally, but was that an official double life, as in he worked for the security services in some way or he was just.
Speaker C:He had just another life going on with someone else?
Speaker A:Well, it wasn't with someone else.
Speaker A:It was his, like a whole other identity.
Speaker A:I mean, basically he had been having affairs the entire marriage.
Speaker A:He had been soliciting women during our honeymoon.
Speaker A:I found, I mean, I found records of things the, the entire time.
Speaker A:So he, he had been doing what I learned was called lying by omission.
Speaker A:And he claimed it was compartmentalizing.
Speaker A:So in his life with me and our children, it was like it was one way, but then he had this whole other thing going on online where he saw himself as this kind of misunderstood little bit of a misfit and always needed to kind of be in the space where you're at the beginning of a relationship and it's kind of fantasy and magical and you feel really desired.
Speaker A:And so that was that continued dozens.
Speaker A:I don't even know how many, how many times this happened.
Speaker C:Yeah, well, I mean, you're obviously some kind of legal warrior and have fought your corner very well.
Speaker C:I want to jump in a little bit of the lawyer.
Speaker C:Do you think the lawyer who was representing you at first.
Speaker C:And we'll go on and talk about the problems that lawyers face in these high conflict divorce cases.
Speaker C:Do you think he was out of his depth or she was out of his depth or they just, they're not ready for this type of case?
Speaker A:Well, so keep in mind that high conflict divorce is a very small percentage of divorces.
Speaker A:Like most, most divorces, everyone's upset at the beginning and angry and everything looks like high conflict.
Speaker A:But the difference is that usually four to six months in, people are like, okay, these bills are out of control.
Speaker A:We gotta settle down and start moving forward with our lives and doing what's best for the kids.
Speaker A:High conflict is the opposite.
Speaker A:So my lawyer somehow, from whatever I told him, sensed that this was going to be very different and understood that it was going to be difficult.
Speaker A:I should say also that my lawyer, I think, was not a typical lawyer.
Speaker A:He was a child of divorce.
Speaker A:He told me about why he went into the profession of being a family lawyer.
Speaker A:And in some ways it was to kind of right the wrongs of what he had experienced and to try to protect children.
Speaker A:The other thing that I think made this case blow up was because my ex started with a very reasonable attorney and he and my lawyer were working together.
Speaker A:And as soon as his attorney started making progress, my ex fired him and hired the one lawyer that my lawyer said, I cannot work with this woman.
Speaker A:She's impossible.
Speaker A:She's notorious.
Speaker A:And my lawyer got along with everybody.
Speaker A:He had very high levels of social, emotional intelligence.
Speaker A:He was not a pit bull type, very non aggressive, very cooperative.
Speaker A:But this, this other lawyer, within three months, I'll never forget, because I was going to a funeral, my lawyer called me and he was like, not hysterical, but really scared.
Speaker A:And he said, I'm so sorry, but our chances of trial just went up another 80% and it's going to get really bad.
Speaker A:And I was just like, oh, my God.
Speaker C:You know what, Lisa?
Speaker C:That shocks me, right?
Speaker C:Because I'm.
Speaker C:Then what it begs a question is, could lawyers be the catalyst for high conflict divorce cases?
Speaker C:Because.
Speaker C:And I want to get into how the lawyers operate, just as you've been discussing, because I see a lot of ego that comes into play.
Speaker C:There's this whole element of I want to prove I'm right and even if, even if the other side realizes it's unfair.
Speaker C:But it seems like to me, from your experience, I want to reflect that back that you recognized that the lawyer lawyers are causing probably more high conflict divorces unknowingly or knowingly.
Speaker C:And what's the reason that they're doing this?
Speaker C:Is it, do they have the best feeling or the best outlook for their client?
Speaker C:Or do you think there's an element of them that are like, well, this is just about my resume.
Speaker C:This is about me getting another win.
Speaker A:So there's a number of reasons why these cases blow up.
Speaker A:So first I should say that my partner, Chris, has a good friend who's a divorce attorney down in Virginia.
Speaker A:They were in college together.
Speaker C:Chris will be on.
Speaker C:It's another episode.
Speaker C:By the way, you'll be meeting Chris.
Speaker A:Oh, yes.
Speaker A:So Chris's friend, we were talking before we did our first book, we were talking to her about it and, and we were under the assumption that if someone is dealing with a high conflict partner, that it's going to turn into one of those bad cases, a high conflict divorce.
Speaker A:And she said that is absolutely not true.
Speaker A:Because if you have two lawyers that can work together, a good lawyer can completely prevent this from happening, depending on, you know, the level of whatever issue their client has but if a lawyer, I think about being a classroom teacher, how classroom management was like 90% of the stuff.
Speaker A:You had to have your class under control so you can have an atmosphere for learning.
Speaker A:So if you have a lawyer who cannot manage their client, then of course it's going to blow up.
Speaker A:So Chris's friend said, two lawyers that can work together can completely avoid this.
Speaker A:And there's systems like in Maryland, where they have built in collaborative practices that are very reasonably priced.
Speaker A:So it's assumed if you're going into the divorce process, you're going to have a mental health professional involved, you're going to have lawyers who can work together, you're going to have mediation.
Speaker A:They're going to do everything they can to keep the level of conflict low because it also saves money and it saves families.
Speaker A:So that's really important.
Speaker A:Now, on the other hand, what we see often with high conflict personalities is they choose lawyers like themselves.
Speaker A:I once interviewed a lawyer and said, because this comes up all the time with our clients, the question, why would somebody represent my ex?
Speaker A:Can't they see what a bad person my ex is?
Speaker A:Why would they participate in this?
Speaker A:How can they sleep at night?
Speaker A:So this one layer that I interviewed said, well, to be honest, those are the clients that pay our bills and keep our office float.
Speaker A:Right, there you have it.
Speaker A:That's one reason.
Speaker A:Another thing is, yes, there's lots of egos, but what I, what I think about is something that a lawyer who's very famous in our, in our community, his name is Bill Eddy.
Speaker A:He's the founder of the High Conflict Institute.
Speaker A:He now works with businesses and governments all over the world.
Speaker A:But he used to be a social worker turned family lawyer, and he trains lawyers all over the world on how to reduce the level of conflict.
Speaker A:And I'm so excited because he wrote the forward to our book and I just found out we're going to go to London and hopefully meet him in person where the book comes out.
Speaker A:But anyway, Bill talks about this concept of positive and negative advocates.
Speaker A:And I think that lawyers are sometimes negative advocates without maybe realizing that they are.
Speaker A:So a positive advocate is anyone that associates, let's say, with a couple that's going through a divorce that can be a little more neutral and figure out, like, what might, might help the family as a whole.
Speaker A:A negative advocate does the opposite.
Speaker A:It could be someone that loves and cares for you as a client, as a, as a person, but they will fan the flames like, you deserve this divorced, had this happen.
Speaker A:You shouldn't let this person get Away with it.
Speaker A:I like lots of blame and accusation which ends up making things far worse in general, but especially with people who have a personality disorder and, or an active addiction who are more likely to be involved with a high conflict case.
Speaker A:So that's why it's so important to have positive lawyers who can be a positive advocates and not contribute to those flames of conflict.
Speaker A:And that's why Chris and I belong to something called the Amicable Divorce Network.
Speaker A:We're the only high conflict professionals in it, but our goal is to meet others who can lower the conflict because we know it just bleeds onto the kids and that, that has so many ripple effects.
Speaker C:What about a lawyer's experience, Lisa?
Speaker C:Because as you know, I work with a lot of attorneys that are potentially going through their own spiritual existential crisis.
Speaker C:And obviously there's a lot of lawyers that are suffering through grief and other forms of crisis and which is an aspect to divorce.
Speaker C:And I know lawyers that have gone through their own divorces that are now family lawyers.
Speaker C:And I think it's important for people out there that may be looking for a lawyer to try and identify, you know, is it worth them finding out what the history of the lawyer is?
Speaker C:Because a lawyer has gone through a divorce might be easy, but they may also have their own high conflict divorce which then makes them, as you say, could be that negative lawyer.
Speaker C:So how do you kind of strike that balance?
Speaker C:Or how does somebody find out is this lawyer for me based on what they've gone through?
Speaker A:That's a, that's a great question.
Speaker A:We actually have a whole section in our first book that goes into how to choose not a good attorney, but the right attorney.
Speaker C:Let's get your book before we go in.
Speaker C:Let's get your book up there.
Speaker C:Show it.
Speaker C:Have you got it in front of you?
Speaker C:So here we go.
Speaker C:Been there, got out.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:It says toxic relationships, high conflict divorce and how to stay sane under insane circumstances.
Speaker C:So phenomenal.
Speaker A:The, the, the person who wrote the forward to this book, we did some collaborations.
Speaker A:He's a Canadian lawyer and his name is David Morneau and he calls himself the recovering litigator.
Speaker A:So he used to be one of those pit bull attorneys.
Speaker A:And that's not me saying it.
Speaker A:He said it and yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:And he, he acknowledges that he was a bit vicious in the courtroom and cared about winning.
Speaker A:And then he had a case that, where a child was moved from one parent to another who was his.
Speaker A:And later the child ended up committed suicide.
Speaker A:And he really looked at that.
Speaker A:I mean, that wasn't the only thing.
Speaker A:But that was a big, like, wake up call of like, what am I actually doing here?
Speaker C:Like, did that affect his mental health in a big way?
Speaker C:Yeah, I would think so.
Speaker C:Absolutely.
Speaker C:He got into his own crisis, obviously, from.
Speaker A:Yeah, so we did.
Speaker A:We.
Speaker A:We've done stuff in person and we also have done interviews and collaborations.
Speaker A:But in the chapter on how to choose the right attorney, we went deeply into not just questions to ask a prospective attorney, but what to expect from the relationship with an attorney.
Speaker A:And also red flags.
Speaker C:I was just going to ask you to send me.
Speaker C:Let me know what these red flags.
Speaker C:Well, not let me know.
Speaker C:I mean, I've had the divorce myself, but it, it's.
Speaker C:I want to, you know, go over these red flags as well at some point.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker A:But in the question section, my favorite question.
Speaker A:So I don't think we need to delve into a lawyer's personal life.
Speaker A:I think they.
Speaker A:Nobody wants to discuss their personal life with.
Speaker C:No, obviously.
Speaker A:But one way that a client can determine if a lawyer might be good or bad for them is to ask them the question, how would you handle a case like mine?
Speaker A:Because this has many layers to this question.
Speaker A:You don't ask it at the very beginning when you first meet, but say, talking after 20ish minutes, how would you handle a case like mine?
Speaker A:Number one, it gives you an opportunity to see how well the lawyer has actually paid attention to what you've said.
Speaker A:Have they been actively listening?
Speaker A:Are they able to express empathy rather than judgment towards what you're going through?
Speaker A:And also, do they have experience with cases like yours?
Speaker A:And then the second thing, or the fourth thing is by saying, how would you handle a case like mine?
Speaker A:You want to see that they can recognize the difference between these types of cases that need to be handled a lot more delicately and normal divorce.
Speaker A:And they have to.
Speaker A:Well, if they answer the question, they have to tell you what their strategy is.
Speaker A:That is different.
Speaker A:Because in my mind, for someone to ask the question like that is we handle these differently because we need to keep the level of conflict low.
Speaker A:And there's so many things we can do about that.
Speaker A:Rather than you just go in and start filing motions and then your ex is going to have to do this.
Speaker A:Like people on the other side, our clients, exes get very defensive, like feral animals.
Speaker A:And so when you start going after them aggressively, that's when the conflict explodes.
Speaker A:So we want from the beginning, before you even file, if possible, how can we approach it with kindness?
Speaker A:I know it's like disgusting to some people to Think how, why should I be kind to someone but leading with empathy.
Speaker A:This person is experiencing deep feelings of abandonment and grief and failure.
Speaker A:So why would we throw fire on top of that if we have children together?
Speaker A:And this is going to be a long term relationship, even though you as a spouse are getting out of it, you still have to share children.
Speaker A:So to have that long term thought of, like, okay, if I destroy them now, what's going to happen in the future?
Speaker A:Rather than, it might not feel palatable.
Speaker A:But there's reasons why we need to keep the conflict low because it's not just us, it's our children and future generations.
Speaker C:I think what you're saying is also it's safe to say that the person who's gone through the divorce or the potential high conflict divorce needs to get a feeling that this lawyer can see the bigger picture, sees beyond the courtroom and sees into what the potential future will be.
Speaker C:So let's talk a little bit about these red flags because people will want to know, even lawyers will want to know what's the red flags?
Speaker C:Because if you teach them red flags, then it may make them aware of, oh, wow, you know, I'm like that, I need to back down or I need to come to Lisa and Chris and get trained on how to deal with this.
Speaker C:So let's talk a little bit about those red flags, Lisa.
Speaker A:Okay, so one of the, one of the big ones that I think about from the beginning with clients, and I'll get to the lawyer part in a second, is our clients are all involved in some type of domestic abuse, usually emotional abuse on top of whatever else.
Speaker A:And so there's something called coercive control where in the relationship there was an imbalance in the power, usually a pretty big imbalance, whether people realized it or not.
Speaker A:And so our client has often tended to not have the power and they get out of the relationship, which takes an inordinate amount of energy and time, I mean, and work with their brain and stuff.
Speaker A:So it's very hard to even get out of one of these relationship.
Speaker A:Yes, yes.
Speaker A:And logistics.
Speaker A:So now they're out, they are completely lost because it's almost like the person who's become an authority is gone.
Speaker A:And they're sort of.
Speaker A:Many people cannot even figure out what to order from a menu.
Speaker A:The most successful, brightest people because of the way their brain has been affected and what they've lived with for however long.
Speaker A:So now they are looking for somebody and they are a vulnerable audience.
Speaker A:They, if they're not careful, they're going to Repeat the same cycle.
Speaker A:We're going to say, okay, I'm going to pay a lawyer 30,000 or whatever amount of money, and now they're going to save my life and they're going to take over, and I'm going to rely on them to do everything, and I don't have to pay attention.
Speaker A:And it's going to feel so much better.
Speaker A:But that is not a healthy thing for a client in our situation.
Speaker A:What we want to do is help them do what's called take strategic oversight of their case and recognize that that relationship with the lawyer is their first opportunity to start learning how to advocate for themselves.
Speaker A:So one of the red flags I'm finally answering the question of a lawyer who is probably not the right fit is when a lawyer acts proprietary about the case and says, I'm going to handle everything, I'm going to tell you what you have to do rather than giving the client options and making things very clear about what their choices are.
Speaker A:And could they say yes, could they say no?
Speaker C:So, Lisa, what other red flags are there that will show up in the behavior of the lawyer or actually what the lawyer says?
Speaker C:Should.
Speaker C:Should.
Speaker C:Should the.
Speaker C:The person going through the potential high conflict divorce be aware of certain behaviors, be aware of certain inflections from the lawyer?
Speaker A:Yeah, I can give you actual words.
Speaker C:I want words.
Speaker A:Words like always and never.
Speaker C:And this is from your.
Speaker C:From your own case.
Speaker C:No, this is okay.
Speaker A:No, no.
Speaker A:So we work with attorneys.
Speaker A:We interview attorneys all the time.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker A:So we have lots of attorney colleagues, and that's how we learned from our attorney friends.
Speaker A:So anyway, but words like always and never, so definitive language, big red flag.
Speaker A:No lawyer should ever be promising, I can get you this, or this never happens because we don't know.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:The law.
Speaker A:I mean, I'm not a lawyer, but the law is pretty flexible.
Speaker A:The only thing I've been told that could possibly be set is child support.
Speaker A:But even for that, you need actual numbers for a calculation.
Speaker A:So in our cases, a lot of our clients, exes play games with numbers, and they make them much lower when it comes to their own income.
Speaker A:So it's hard to even set an amount.
Speaker A:But any lawyer that is making promises to a client about what it's going to be or what the judge is going to do.
Speaker A:No, that's.
Speaker A:We have had so many cases where clients have been led to believe that this is.
Speaker A:They're going to get custody or this is going to happen and then.
Speaker A:Or restraining or then it's like, oh, I don't know what Happened.
Speaker A:The judge woke up in a bad mood.
Speaker A:What?
Speaker A:Okay, whether that's the case or not, that client shouldn't have expectations of this is how it's going to be.
Speaker A:Okay, so that's.
Speaker A:That's the one thing we talked about, them being proprietary, being like, I'm the only one who's going to handle the case.
Speaker A:I don't want you talking to other people.
Speaker A:Like, certainly, yes.
Speaker A:The lawyer's job is to be your ally and advocate and translate the case into the law.
Speaker A:And I understand not too many cooks in the kitchen, but when you are dealing with a client who's experiencing domestic violence, they need a therapist.
Speaker A:They need probably a coach like us or a strategist, because we make our clients less needy.
Speaker A:We make them the teacher's pet.
Speaker A:So lawyers say they like us because they're like, I don't have to babysit my client.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker A:I don't have to worry.
Speaker C:You're preparing them.
Speaker C:You're getting.
Speaker C:You're.
Speaker C:You're basically getting them ready, giving them all the background.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:A harsh New York reality check.
Speaker A:We're like, we're gonna go through this.
Speaker A:We're gonna go through the alienation factors.
Speaker A:We're gonna get you into.
Speaker A:Teach you how to communicate better with your ex.
Speaker A:We're not gonna let you pop off because this is all gonna be exhibit A.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:So all of that stuff, they have better clients who are easier to work with, who are less needy.
Speaker A:Because we know often how.
Speaker A:How our.
Speaker A:Our clients use their lawyers.
Speaker A:I did.
Speaker A:As therapists.
Speaker A:Because they don't know where else to turn.
Speaker A:They don't know there's other resources out there.
Speaker A:So we don't want lawyers being like, you're.
Speaker A:You're.
Speaker A:I'm the one.
Speaker A:Like, I'm.
Speaker A:I'm the God, and you only listen to me.
Speaker A:We've seen lawyers scream at our clients.
Speaker A:Why don't you just do this?
Speaker A:Those who have no understanding of what they're experiencing.
Speaker A:So those are.
Speaker C:Do you think, then, that there is a massive division between experience and theory?
Speaker A:I think there's a lot of marketing that goes on now.
Speaker C:Obviously, we're hit with it all the time.
Speaker C:But I think, though, that.
Speaker C:So here's my.
Speaker C:Let me posit this to you.
Speaker C:So here's my idea that a lawyer who has experience, has children, has maybe gone through a divorce.
Speaker C:There's positives and negatives, obviously.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker C:But what about a lawyer who comes up that has no children, has never gone through anything really, that's any kind of level of crisis in their life?
Speaker C:Maybe as young don't have that.
Speaker C:But they've passed the bar.
Speaker C:They have done all.
Speaker C:They're a family lawyer, they know the theory.
Speaker C:Surely someone who's been through a potential high conflict divorce should look toward the experience and that the theory doesn't matter.
Speaker C:Maybe there's a division between both.
Speaker A:I mean, I don't know if you have to be a member of the been there got out club to be a good professional in the business.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Fair.
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:Like one of our lawyer that we really like, that we've had dinner with is very young and he has young, he's having a baby now, but he has a very young child.
Speaker A:So he hasn't experienced something like this.
Speaker A:He's very happily married, but when he was 18 he was a referee and he's excellent at conflict resolution and he's super funny and he also is a partner for his age.
Speaker A:He's young, but he's, he has a lot of excellent experience and we have recommended to people to him and they've been very happy with him.
Speaker C:So even though, so it doesn't always add up that you need to have that experience that you, you can come from a place.
Speaker C:Place a theory.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I mean you need training.
Speaker C:But he has experience though, because you've just admitted that he does.
Speaker A:But he doesn't have personal experience.
Speaker C:No, he doesn't.
Speaker C:But he has lived experience in other ways that he's brought in.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So just like anybody, the skills that you bring for your life.
Speaker A:And that's why saying how would you handle a case like mine?
Speaker A:Let's hear them give their strategy and skills and their theory in terms of why they imagine they would handle it like this, which of course has to be more delicately rather than we're just going to start filing a whole bunch of motions and your ex is going to be forced to comply.
Speaker A:Like that does not work with these cases.
Speaker C:Let me go to the polar opposite, play devil's advocate.
Speaker C:What are the big red flags for lawyers for potential divorce?
Speaker C:You know, people going through high conflict divorce.
Speaker C:So there's got to be red flags for them.
Speaker A:Yeah, I mean, well, I mean some lawyers don't mind high conflict clients, right.
Speaker A:Because if they're paying the bill, it depends on the, the human being.
Speaker A:But the lawyers we've talked to, when, when a client does not listen, they don't listen.
Speaker A:They, they are proprietary themselves.
Speaker A:They're like, I know better clients who, who listen to what's called barstool counsel, they'll say, oh, but my friend.
Speaker A:But My friend said I'm supposed to get this.
Speaker A:Someone who insists.
Speaker A:Like I was, let's say I was the primary parent.
Speaker A:I know I'm supposed to get, you know, this and I, I should have this and you need to do it for me.
Speaker A:And if you don't do it, then I'm going to fire you.
Speaker A:But I think.
Speaker A:So putting aside and someone who's got a personality disorder and, or an active addiction, that's a warning, that's a red flag.
Speaker A:We say for high conflict divorce for our clients as well.
Speaker A:But I would say for an attorney hearing it from the other side of the clients that make these cases difficult is someone who's been also a victim of domestic violence.
Speaker A:So like our clients, they might be difficult, not for the reason that you'd imagine.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker A:So the, I thought it would be, you know, just because again, it's like they're dealing with a difficult ex, but they themselves can be difficult.
Speaker A:So we can be difficult because we have hope and we think, my ex is not as bad as they are.
Speaker A:Things might change.
Speaker A:I'm going to take him or her back.
Speaker A:We're going to keep working on it.
Speaker A:So those are the cases that stall and stop and start and stop and start.
Speaker A:So lawyers get like really frustrated with clients.
Speaker A:Like, come on, you know, what are you going to do?
Speaker A:Make a decision that's hard to work with.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:You're not honest.
Speaker A:For us, for Chris and I, we, we ask, what's your biggest concern right now?
Speaker A:When we first meet with someone, when someone is going on and on and on about money and then you find out they have kids, it's like regarding the priorities, it changes.
Speaker C:I think what you're being clear on as well is the dynamic changes when you bring in children because you talk about co parenting and where this can be a particular stumbling block.
Speaker C:And you've, I believe you've got real experience from this, from your own case.
Speaker C:Can we talk a little bit about.
Speaker C:I mean that.
Speaker A:Yeah, I mean, my experience, I always say I got my best education in the trenches with my own case.
Speaker A:My best experience is working with hundreds of men and women all over the world and learning from them.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:I always say our content is inspired by, by our clients because when they have issues, I'm like, oh, I am going to find somebody who can answer that question if I can't do it.
Speaker A:And so, yeah, so that's, that's what I usually do.
Speaker A:But in terms of my own case, ask me, ask me a more specific question.
Speaker C:So in your own case, when you were getting into the problem of maybe custody with your kids.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:How does.
Speaker C:How did you cope with that?
Speaker C:And because you didn't have a lawyer to help you, you were doing this on your own?
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:Okay, so just to clarify, I had a lawyer for the divorce.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker A:But post judgment, I was pro se.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker A:For the divorce.
Speaker A:We always say you need a lawyer because this is the foundation of the case.
Speaker A:However, what I did right at the beginning with my wonderful lawyer that, you know, gave me all this information was when we first met again.
Speaker A:He has very good social, emotional skills.
Speaker A:He is, like, way above many.
Speaker A:He does, like, men's retreats.
Speaker A:He's done the work, you know, like, he's.
Speaker A:He's.
Speaker A:He's not like a typical lawyer.
Speaker A:But anyway, he said, let's try this.
Speaker A:I want you to go to mediation, and I want you to go without me.
Speaker A:And I don't want your ex to even know that you have an attorney.
Speaker A:So let's.
Speaker A:You hire me for a lot less money in a consulting basis.
Speaker A:And I.
Speaker A:Now, again, many clients are not able to do this.
Speaker A:I was not afraid of my husband at the time.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker A:But many people are.
Speaker A:So my lawyer said, how about we do this?
Speaker A:Like, let's come up with some ideas of what a parenting plan would look like or the money would look like.
Speaker A:Like A and B, if you can get into that mediation, take it.
Speaker A:C and D. I'm not sure we're going to look at everything afterward.
Speaker A:And enf.
Speaker A:Like, forget it.
Speaker A:We're not.
Speaker A:Then we'll have to go to court.
Speaker A:But you're going to, you know, you try to do what you can in mediation, do just like a couple of hours every other week, and let's see.
Speaker A:Because it's going to be a lot cheaper.
Speaker A:And also, my ex didn't have an attorney at the time, so we had me playing dumb, which worked very, very well.
Speaker A:And not having attorneys in mediation, which we also encourage our clients, depending on the situation, because.
Speaker A:And attorneys have good attorneys have said this.
Speaker A:When attorneys are in the room, they're advocates for their clients, and it ends up being much more adversarial.
Speaker A:Whereas if you have.
Speaker C:Imagine that.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:The mediator or a collaborative professional who's working with the clients, like, for my own situation, the mediator was an attorney who basically was the voice of the judge.
Speaker A:Like, this is what a judge would do.
Speaker A:So, for example, my ex had been saying, I'm not.
Speaker A:I'm not paying any child support.
Speaker A:Like, I'm not doing it.
Speaker A:And so he went into mediation and said, well, I don't think that I should pay any child support unless I have a great relationship with the kids.
Speaker A:Now, me saying, that's not going to fly.
Speaker A:He's not going to listen to me.
Speaker A:But the mediator said, that's not going to fly in court at all.
Speaker A:That's not how these things work.
Speaker A:So we need to come up with a number.
Speaker A:So in a moment, that could have been thousands of dollars in court.
Speaker A:So the mediator was able to sort of, like, corral right into making this thing.
Speaker A:And my ex didn't feel like he was picking sides, you know, so.
Speaker A:So it wasn't like anyone on the defense.
Speaker A:It was sort of like we were both in there being educated.
Speaker A:And so we ended up.
Speaker A:Now, my situation is also very different than a lot of our clients.
Speaker A:My ex was not fighting for custody.
Speaker A:He wanted to say 50, 50 for everything.
Speaker A:But he was like, you take the.
Speaker A:He, like, dipped out that I.
Speaker A:My kids have a whole other set of issues.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker A:My son actually said, I wish my father had waged a custody battle because it would have shown that he cared.
Speaker A:My ex didn't do that.
Speaker A:He.
Speaker A:So custody, like.
Speaker A:But I did get an awesome parenting plan with protective language in it that really was.
Speaker A:Was helpful.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:But just keep that in mind.
Speaker A:Like, mine was different.
Speaker A:But what did work was not having lawyers in the room, especially in those early stages, and then getting this great parenting plan that my lawyer said, oh, my God, that is wonderful.
Speaker A:You just saved.
Speaker A:This was years ago.
Speaker A:He's like, you saved at least $10,000.
Speaker C:Wow.
Speaker A:Doing that yourself in the process.
Speaker A:I was empowering myself.
Speaker A:I was able to deal with this person who had, you know, I mean.
Speaker C:Let'S face it, you did.
Speaker C:You changed the law a little bit.
Speaker A:That was later.
Speaker A:That was later.
Speaker C:But if you hadn't gone through all that, though, you would never have been able to change this.
Speaker C:I mean, you're very much the divorce Erin Brockovich.
Speaker C:Like, you've come from nowhere.
Speaker C:You've gone through this massive experience, and then you, you know, you've changed the law later on and, you know, with the work that you're doing and working, you know, coaching clients that are going through high conflict divorce and these attorneys.
Speaker C:I think I'm really interested as well in the work that you're doing with co parenting, because I think that's really important.
Speaker C:And perhaps there are lawyers that they've got kids and find them, and maybe someday they don't have kids, but they may be.
Speaker C:Do you think sometimes the kids are forgotten about afterwards.
Speaker C:They think about them during the divorce.
Speaker C:They think about them when they're trying to do.
Speaker C:But how they mentally are affected, what their crisis is continuing forward.
Speaker C:I mean, just from what your son said, that to me is brought a big red flag.
Speaker C:You know, how do we look toward the kid's future?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I mean, that's so.
Speaker A:To me, that comes down to co parenting communication.
Speaker A:That's such a huge part of it.
Speaker A:And I mean, that's whenever you.
Speaker A:It's almost like after a funeral, everyone leaves, but you still have to deal with this person.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:So how do you do it?
Speaker A:So now people are using AI a lot.
Speaker A:I do not ever recommend that.
Speaker C:Oh, let's not go down that.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:Especially with our clients ex is it.
Speaker A:It can actually trigger them because it's too logical.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So it doesn't really work.
Speaker A:I mean, you can use it for little things, but.
Speaker A:So we teach something called strategic communication and we say that's basically a system.
Speaker A:We came up with our own little model called FRAC F R A C. But it's where you are.
Speaker A:Thanks.
Speaker A:You are writing to your ex, but you are always writing for the invisible audience.
Speaker A:And the goal is.
Speaker A:And this is the client.
Speaker A:The client is presenting as the best, most reasonable co parent ever.
Speaker A:But at the same time, they're documenting their ex's patterns of behavior over time.
Speaker A:Because for our clients are going to be back in court, probably the impact it has on their children and on their relationship with the children.
Speaker A:So a lot of this also involves negotiation techniques and things we call in the frac, like the A.
Speaker A:We call that the universal agreement or the anchor.
Speaker A:And that's where you try to find commonality that you want to write down as if, like, we both want the same thing.
Speaker A:So one of the most common universal agreements that we make sure our clients do, especially when the kids are being exposed to, you know, poisonous messages about one parent by the other, is to.
Speaker A:Is to write to your ex.
Speaker A:Like, I'm sure, like, say something happens and they're freaking out and cursing at you during handovers or whatever.
Speaker A:To say something like this happened.
Speaker A:Like, I'm sure we can both agree how important it is to shield the kids from any conflict between us.
Speaker A:Boom.
Speaker A:Like, your ex cannot say anything.
Speaker A:I mean, they're gonna say, that's brilliant.
Speaker C:Because I think there's a lot of coaching goes on.
Speaker C:And I don't mean coaching in the way that we're talking.
Speaker C:I'm talking about coaching the kids.
Speaker C:Because they would say, you know, your mom, your dad, Is this.
Speaker C:They've done this.
Speaker C:They've done this.
Speaker C:So they're coaching the kids and they're feeding them with negativity.
Speaker C:And I think what you're doing is you're stopping that before it even happens.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Or you're documenting it as it's happening, and then you're whatever.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:So let's say, like, the kid comes and this happens all the time.
Speaker A:The kid comes to the house and says, oh, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker A:Says you're.
Speaker A:This a line like that or something?
Speaker A:Like another one we use frequently is, I'm like, I'm sure we can both agree that the kids should be able to have a close relationship with each of us.
Speaker A:Even though your ex doesn't feel that way.
Speaker A:Yeah, they are not going to say that's not true.
Speaker A:Or if they do, it's gold.
Speaker A:Like one of our attorneys, Yoni Leveritz, his name is in New York City, he said, their anger is your gold.
Speaker A:So it's almost like you say these things and they're going to respond in three ways.
Speaker A:One, they're going to stop doing the bad behavior, which is very rare, but it does work.
Speaker A:Like, we've had clients have tremendous success with trying to get things to go a certain way.
Speaker A:The second is the silent treatment.
Speaker A:So you write this, it's child focused.
Speaker A:They say nothing.
Speaker A:Then it's part of the written record.
Speaker A:So now we start establishing the patterns of the behavior again in terms of when you go back to court or asking for therapy or whatever.
Speaker A:But the most common thing is they'll answer with this wall of angry texts.
Speaker A:It's because you're such a terrible parent.
Speaker A:But by doing so, they're not actually focusing on protecting the kid from that conflict.
Speaker A:And recognizing one of the most important custody factors, or best interest factors, is that children like, each parent is supposed to support the child's relationship with the other parent.
Speaker A:And nobody is supposed to.
Speaker A:The parent, other parent is not supposed to undermine that relationship.
Speaker A:Because everyone knows that unless there's like, crazy documented abuse and restraining orders, which is very rare, kids deserve to have an opportunity to have a relationship.
Speaker A:And if it's not going to be a good relationship, then they need to figure that out for themselves.
Speaker A:Unless they're too little.
Speaker A:And then we put protective stuff in place.
Speaker A:But again, that has to be based on evidence.
Speaker A:But that child needs to be able to have that relationship.
Speaker A:It is not the same relationship as we had with our exes.
Speaker A:And a therapist was just saying the other day when I was interviewing her, we have to remember it is a different relationship that that child has.
Speaker A:That's the child's one of their primary attachment figures.
Speaker A:So for us to interfere and be like, I don't, you know, I'm worried that they're going to do to you what they did to me.
Speaker A:They might, but you can't do that.
Speaker A:And that's what's really, really hard for clients to accept.
Speaker A:And we have little props, like lots of barf bags and Academy Awards, like, this is going to be very hard for you.
Speaker A:But you have to understand just the nature of like human relationships, that it's.
Speaker A:You are harming your child by not following the parenting plan, by trying to restrict all the access.
Speaker A:It's not going to happen in court, probably because even people in jail have, have access to their children.
Speaker A:It's about how do we teach our children how to advocate for themselves, how do we help them develop resilience and coping skills?
Speaker A:Because it's not just going to be a parent that they're dealing with.
Speaker A:They're going to go through the world learning how to deal with very difficult people.
Speaker A:And you can't be the bubble wrap parent of making sure, like, they never experience discomfort.
Speaker C:They've got to experience life and they've got to grow up.
Speaker C:They're going to get good and they're going to get bad, as simple as that.
Speaker C:That's the way that the world works.
Speaker A:So a lot of that is almost like working with clients to realize, like, you cannot control these things.
Speaker A:Things.
Speaker A:But what, what can you do to help?
Speaker A:But not, not all this.
Speaker C:Do you ever come across, I think they said, I mean, it's going to change in the song.
Speaker C:But do you ever come across clients that just won't listen?
Speaker A:Oh, yeah.
Speaker A:I mean, often in the first call when we do a discovery zoom meeting with them, Chris and I don't live together.
Speaker A:So we'll text each other and be like, no.
Speaker C:Really?
Speaker A:And we'll say, yeah, you have, you.
Speaker C:Both have red flags for potential clients.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:And sometimes we'll be like this person's know it alls who are just like, I already have been communicating great and blah, blah, blah, like not cultural.
Speaker C:Yeah, there's a lot of people out there that know the theory but don't have the experience to put it into practice.
Speaker C:Or they'll say, but I know that.
Speaker C:I know that.
Speaker C:Yes, I know that.
Speaker C:Well, yeah, I'm like, so why are.
Speaker A:You, why are we talking?
Speaker C:Why, why are you still going through the same problems?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker C:Why are you not taking action on what you know?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:Or what you think, you know.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker C:And what are you missing?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I mean, and everybody can learn these things.
Speaker A:Many of our clients probably.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Huge percentage.
Speaker A:Percentage of our clients are mental health professionals and they're feeding themselves.
Speaker A:Wait a minute.
Speaker C:A huge hold the bus, rewind.
Speaker A:And lawyers, I was going to say.
Speaker C:So a lot of your clients are actually mental health professionals that are going through height conflict, divorce.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker C:Wow.
Speaker C:That's a little.
Speaker C:That is.
Speaker C:I never even considered that.
Speaker A:This is.
Speaker A:I mean, if you think about domestic violence, it affects one in three women and one in five men on average.
Speaker A:And it's probably more than that because that's the reported stuff.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:So that affects everybody.
Speaker A:I'm not saying that everybody has high conflict divorces or crazy custody battle, but there's huge numbers of people dealing with who don't know what exactly they're dealing with.
Speaker A:They think, oh, this is just how it is.
Speaker A:And I don't know, you know, so.
Speaker A:So mental health professionals, they end up really beating themselves up because they're like, I should have known.
Speaker A:I should have been able to see this.
Speaker C:I get it.
Speaker C:Well, at the end of the day, you can't really be a mental health professional unless you've actually experienced some mental health issues.
Speaker A:Right, right.
Speaker C:So it's like, you know, man, know thyself, and, you know, you've got to work on yourself as you're going through.
Speaker C:So I mean, this is why we.
Speaker C:We work in the mental health field, because we've had experiences.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:And so you have to go through it like I.
Speaker C:Experiences of PTSD and stuff like that.
Speaker C:So you have to, you know, this is probably what goes on.
Speaker C:I'm interested if you've dealt with any cases, Lisa, where it's a lawyer going through a high conflict divorce.
Speaker A:Oh, absolutely.
Speaker C:That must be unique.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Especially if they're a divorce lawyer or, you know, any other kind of lawyer.
Speaker C:But I guess maybe if they're a divorce lawyer and they're going through a high conflict divorce, that must be quite unique, having to work with them because they would have an element of the law.
Speaker C:They know it, they understand it, and how do you cope with someone like that?
Speaker A:All right, so it's interesting because our lawyer clients sometimes feel the injustice the most because they're like, I work in this system and I cannot believe that this is happening.
Speaker A:This is so crazy.
Speaker A:This is like the wild West.
Speaker A:Like, nothing makes sense.
Speaker A:Nobody's like, this is not due process or like, I'm thinking of one of our lawyer clients who had one of the Most extreme cases, a physical and emotional abuse.
Speaker A:She was a graduate of Columbia Law School.
Speaker A:She was a high powered corporate attorney in Manhattan.
Speaker A:She had a toddler and a baby.
Speaker A:And she was, she was, she had gotten out of a relationship where she, she would go to work, she'd come back, he would lock her in the basement, covered up the windows, unscrewed the light bulbs, and they basically stayed in the basement.
Speaker A:And we'd call her and the baby's like the most vicious names.
Speaker A:Then he'd let her out to go to work during the day and.
Speaker A:But in the basement.
Speaker A:Yes, with the babies.
Speaker C:That is crazy.
Speaker A:I know.
Speaker A:So she had an attorney.
Speaker A:So she, again, she didn't do divorce, but she was one of those people where she was so upset.
Speaker A:And her training, she was a total type A, but she was a difficult client to work with because she was, she didn't want to go pro se, but she wanted to manage everything.
Speaker A:And she, the injustice was, was eating her alive.
Speaker A:So that was difficult.
Speaker A:Things are, Things are much.
Speaker A:She did really, really well in court.
Speaker A:That was, that was tricky though.
Speaker A:But yeah, the lawyers, we also have lawyers who, like one of our clients who we've had for a while, she, she used to be a litigator.
Speaker A:Her sister.
Speaker A:A lot of times people's family members will kind of drag them to us over zoom or sister was like, you got to talk to these people.
Speaker A:I'll be on the call.
Speaker A:So we got her as a client and she was like, I couldn't believe that she was a lawyer and a litigator.
Speaker A:She was just a shell.
Speaker A:She was, she was like, I think I'm gonna, I can't work anymore because, you know, he never picks up our child and I have to always be there and I have to be the hero.
Speaker A:I have to make sure everything's okay if I'm, if I'm working.
Speaker A:And also he, he said that I'm a really bad communicator.
Speaker A:So I don't think we were just like, oh my gosh.
Speaker A:So she is way better now.
Speaker A:She did not give up her job and she ended up representing herself.
Speaker A:She couldn't represent herself for a while.
Speaker A:And she's, she's had many victories.
Speaker A:But yeah, to see.
Speaker A:Yeah, we've, we've had a number of lawyers like go back to lawyering who could not do their job based on.
Speaker C:Does it change their, the way that they approach then their, their legal work.
Speaker A:From, from that experience, I am, I imagine so.
Speaker A:We did have a client, I think, who slipped past us who was a family lawyer who we realized a couple sessions in, I think was the problem, because we met this person.
Speaker A:I'll say they just.
Speaker A:Just in case.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:So we met this person.
Speaker A:They were.
Speaker A:They were very, like, I already know everything about all this stuff.
Speaker A:I just need some help with the custody thing.
Speaker A:They were telling us these stories about their ex, like, throwing children on the ground, and I mean, like, really extreme stories, and it.
Speaker A:And somehow, like, they were like, oh, it's going to be all worked out.
Speaker A:And then that was, like, the first call, and then there was some time in between.
Speaker A:Then all of a sudden, everything changed where this person lost custody, and there was CPS involved, and it was against the client, and I thought, oh, I actually think this person is the problem.
Speaker C:Wow.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:How did you cope with that then?
Speaker C:How did you.
Speaker C:Did you.
Speaker C:I was gonna say, because the way that you.
Speaker C:The way that you approach that is a make or break, and you could cause more issues than.
Speaker C:So how did you dice.
Speaker A:That was a very short relationship.
Speaker C:That was it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:Did you.
Speaker C:Did you distance.
Speaker C:Did you disconnect?
Speaker A:We kind of were like, oh, you know, this is.
Speaker A:This is really complicated.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker A:But part of this person's issue was thinking that they knew everything anyway, so they weren't reaching out as much, which worked in our favor.
Speaker A:And we're just like, yeah, you got it.
Speaker A:You got.
Speaker A:You know, you're.
Speaker A:You're an expert.
Speaker A:Like, you're good at.
Speaker A:Like, you're gonna figure this out.
Speaker A:You know, you have to work with.
Speaker C:You're free to know.
Speaker A:Like, you're great.
Speaker A:You're doing great.
Speaker A:You.
Speaker A:You.
Speaker A:You know, you're.
Speaker A:I'm sure, you know, you.
Speaker A:You got it.
Speaker A:You don't want to waste your more money on us.
Speaker C:Lisa, what is your greatest.
Speaker C:If I can ask you this, what is the greatest case that you've ever worked on that got you the best result but was probably maybe the most stressful?
Speaker A:Oh, that's.
Speaker A:That's hard.
Speaker A:Because, first of all, my memory is awful.
Speaker A:Like, I don't remember what I did yesterday.
Speaker C:I go in the shower and forget to wash my hair, actually.
Speaker C:I come out of it, and I'm like, did I wash my hair?
Speaker A:Like, so we have, like.
Speaker A:Well, first of all, let me say we have a thing every month in our newsletter called from puddle to Ninja.
Speaker A:That's our little hashtag.
Speaker A:Like, because people meet us, they're a mess, and then they end up performing, and then they're like, I'm getting this person.
Speaker A:So we have so many.
Speaker A:So many incredible stories, like, it's like a, Like I get a hit all the time and then I forget.
Speaker C:You get a door, you get a dopamine hit.
Speaker A:When I get tons of dopamine.
Speaker A:Because we do so much writing back and forth with our clients, they're always reporting things.
Speaker A:So we have, we have like the great, the great stories.
Speaker A:Like, we have like one of our clients.
Speaker A:See, and when you say the hardest, I'm like, it's not the hard.
Speaker A:Like, it's hard for me to say it's a hard thing.
Speaker C:I get that.
Speaker A:I mean, there's extreme situations, but it's.
Speaker A:I can't think of cases where it's been really hard except when we were terrified for our client's safety, which is very rare.
Speaker A:So that, to me, those are the hard cases where I'm like, oh, my God, oh my God, like, what's going to happen?
Speaker A:Or.
Speaker A:Or the false allegations where our client, like, it got slammed with stuff and they're just like, oh, no, oh, no.
Speaker A:And they're behind the eight ball.
Speaker A:Those are the hard cases.
Speaker A:But the ones where we're like, we have control over what's happening.
Speaker A:It never feels that hard.
Speaker A:But one story that.
Speaker A:That is one of my favorite from one of our first clients.
Speaker A:It's like, I've got that long term memory.
Speaker A:She was, she.
Speaker A:I'll just say so.
Speaker A:She was a Native American woman and a special ed teacher in her 40s.
Speaker A:She had had bottles thrown at her face, like all the horrible, like, physical abuse, emotional abuse.
Speaker A:She had gotten out.
Speaker A:And she was a couple years out when we met.
Speaker A:She first found us through our weekly legal abuse support group.
Speaker A:And so she was in the group then she hired us, but just for like a couple of sessions, because she already was getting a lot, I think, out of the group.
Speaker A:And she was, she was so smart and she had all these skills from teaching that she didn't realize that she had.
Speaker A:So her thing was, you know, I think, I wonder if I should go back and try to get the child support that this person had.
Speaker A:Her ex hadn't paid.
Speaker A:And we were like, yeah, you know, go pro se.
Speaker A:Like, you can do it.
Speaker A:You know, you're not in the middle of the divorce anymore.
Speaker A:She was so savvy, you know, she.
Speaker A:She put together these great binder and exhibits and looked up stuff with the law and we worked on things.
Speaker A:She went in, the judge was completely impressed by her, said, Ms. Blah, blah, blah, give me your binder, I'm gonna use it.
Speaker A:And she went back a couple more times, was able to get restraining orders.
Speaker A:Like she crushed it.
Speaker A:So she decided to go to law school.
Speaker C:No way.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:She is now in law school.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:And so she is a, you know, trauma informed lawyer.
Speaker A:And she is only one of 2% of lawyers in this country, in America who are like her, like Native American woman.
Speaker C:I would love to get connected with her.
Speaker A:We're still in touch with her.
Speaker A:We, we, you know, I met her in real life.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:I met her, her partner and, and she's lovely.
Speaker A:She's very active in her community.
Speaker A:We've done, we actually did a presentation for, for her community over Zoom for a Galentine's Day event like a year or two ago.
Speaker A:It's like, yeah, that's phenomenal.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:That must be the, that, that's the one case where it's really blossomed and has been.
Speaker A:So that's extreme.
Speaker A:But, but I think about one that happened recently.
Speaker A:So we have, we have an interesting situation where we have two ex wives of the same person.
Speaker A:We got ex wife number two who referred us ex wife number one.
Speaker A:So we're tag teaming with the two.
Speaker A:And so both of them are horrified.
Speaker A:You know, one has a baby, the other as a teenager, but both of them are like terrified of this, this man that they have this relationship with.
Speaker A:And so both of them were puddles.
Speaker A:So we're working with both puddles.
Speaker A:One of them is also like a doctor, mental health professional who's a doctor.
Speaker A:And so we were working with her and having her do things that were counterintuitive that we had to, you know, say, like, I'm, I just promise you let, like, let's just try it.
Speaker A:And has worked.
Speaker A:So this guy is coming after both of them.
Speaker A:He was coming after ex wife number two in court to try to flip custody.
Speaker A:So she's dealing with all this litigation, abuse, you know, scared like, oh, if I'm not perfect that he's going to do this and the baby, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker A:But I remember just, just like three weeks ago, she sent an email.
Speaker A:And what did it say?
Speaker A:It was something like, I'm crying right now in the, in the subject.
Speaker A:And then she went on to say, you guys, like, I cannot believed it worked.
Speaker A:He completely fell for this.
Speaker A:And then she, and we always get screenshots of people's communication.
Speaker A:She's like, look at this.
Speaker A:And he's like, thank you so much.
Speaker A:Like, I really appreciate how you, your attitude has changed.
Speaker A:And, and he totally dropped all the legal stuff and everything's great.
Speaker A:And we, we have, you know, we're checking her communication.
Speaker A:But, like, if you looked at the.
Speaker A:You think these people are great friends and have the most amicable relationship in the meantime.
Speaker A:She's.
Speaker A:She faked it.
Speaker A:She made it.
Speaker A:She's.
Speaker A:But she's completely not scared of him.
Speaker A:We're laughing about it now, and ex wife number one is like, everything's good.
Speaker A:And we're, like, planning how.
Speaker A:I can't give details because it's still active.
Speaker C:No, no.
Speaker A:How to make this person feel like he's this amazing guy and wonderful father, and everyone wants to come to a party for him next year so we can take pictures of all of the exes and their children, and it's one big happy family.
Speaker A:So that.
Speaker A:That's, again, not, like, the hardest or the greatest, but that's the most recent that I can remember that we were just like, yes.
Speaker C:Wow, that's brilliant.
Speaker C:I love hearing that.
Speaker C:And how what you're doing is helping to transform their lives, essentially.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So also for their kids, it involves, like, standing up to a bully and.
Speaker A:And not letting that anxiety, like, letting your kids see how anxious you are about their other parents.
Speaker A:But to be like, we're good.
Speaker A:Like, we're fine, even if it's just on paper, because it changes you.
Speaker A:And that's why I feel like strategic communication is one of the best ways to start healing, because you start turning that power dynamic around.
Speaker A:And it's safe because it's in writing.
Speaker C:And you're using strategic language.
Speaker C:Let me ask you that.
Speaker C:Let me play a bit of a devil's advocate again, because what if you're in a case, Lisa, you and Chris are working on a case, and you both get to the point where you go, wait a minute.
Speaker C:This is not.
Speaker C:There's something not right here.
Speaker C:And maybe it's the person who is the defense or the plaintiff, maybe not the people that have come to you that are going through the divorce, and you're like, well, wait, he or she.
Speaker C:That they're divorcing.
Speaker C:You're like, oh, wait a minute.
Speaker C:This is not the way.
Speaker C:This is not adding up.
Speaker C:And actually, this past.
Speaker C:This other side may have more rights or maybe.
Speaker C:Right, right.
Speaker C:Because that's.
Speaker C:Because what you're talking about is all these people are going through these problems.
Speaker C:You're helping them through the transformative.
Speaker C:Fabulous.
Speaker C:But then you come with someone that, you know is maybe, you know, intuitively going, yeah, something not right.
Speaker C:This is the lion.
Speaker C:And maybe then you find out by the communication that the other part is right.
Speaker C:How do you.
Speaker C:How do you deal with that?
Speaker A:I love this question.
Speaker A:No one has ever asked it.
Speaker C:Well, I'm gonna.
Speaker A:And I have to say that this comes up a lot.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:When people first meet us, and it comes out in the form of unfortunately, like, inadvertently alienating behaviors where the client is ours, and they're like, I don't want that person to see their other parent.
Speaker A:I need to limit, limit, limit.
Speaker A:Here's what I've done.
Speaker A:And we're just like, harsh New York reality check.
Speaker A:Like, listen, you are in the wrong.
Speaker A:So, for example, we had a situation.
Speaker C:You're quite.
Speaker C:Yeah, I love that you do this New York reality check.
Speaker C:I think it's brilliant.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:So, for example, one of.
Speaker A:One of our people has three young children, and they were in a doctor's office, and, like, one kid was in the therapist.
Speaker A:The other our client was doing an art project with.
Speaker A:And her ex was in another part of the office with.
Speaker A:With the young child.
Speaker A:The young child started coming into the room where she was with.
Speaker A:With the other child.
Speaker A:And her ex husband came and said, sat in the room, and there was nobody around.
Speaker A:And she got very uncomfortable.
Speaker A:And she said, you need to leave.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:So these two children who are there, like, why does our other parent need to leave?
Speaker A:And she's like, you're making me unco.
Speaker A:So she was having this conversation in front of the kids, said, you need to leave.
Speaker A:He got very defensive and said, I'm not doing anything wrong.
Speaker A:Why are you starting this?
Speaker A:And she was like, I.
Speaker A:So she.
Speaker A:She.
Speaker A:She was the leader.
Speaker A:Okay?
Speaker A:So this happened.
Speaker A:She got up and walked out and went in the parking lot, and the kids were crying and with her, and her ex was furious.
Speaker A:And she said, how can I prevent this from happening again?
Speaker A:And we carefully said, you need to apologize.
Speaker A:You did completely the wrong thing, and here's why.
Speaker A:Your anxiety came out, and your kids, who didn't think there was no problem, but you made it about yourself, and it caused this problem.
Speaker A:So instead, if you can't deal with that, then you never have to be in a situation where you're alone, where that can happen.
Speaker A:But if I were you, I would send a strategic communication saying, I am so sorry about my behavior.
Speaker A:I didn't realize it.
Speaker A:I'm sure we can both have kids in the middle.
Speaker A:And I was wrong.
Speaker C:Like, how did she take that, though, Lisa?
Speaker C:How did she take that?
Speaker A:She said, you know what?
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:You're right.
Speaker A:And I didn't realize it.
Speaker A:I mean, she took it well.
Speaker A:You have to be careful.
Speaker A:But she took it well.
Speaker A:And she said, I really appreciate you telling Me that I could see why.
Speaker A:And we have to do that.
Speaker A:I mean, that was one situation.
Speaker A:We have to do that fairly frequently with.
Speaker A:And repeating it to a client where, like, where they're like, I need to have, you know, all the custody.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And he.
Speaker A:Especially women, you know, because they tend to be the primary caretakers more so not always, but where they're like, well, I'm the one who's done everything, and this means that I should get this, this, this, and da, da, da.
Speaker A:And we're just like, but.
Speaker A:But that's not how it is.
Speaker A:And we talk about the Tender years doctrine and feminism and how if, like, women, you know, in the 70s started working, that everybody wants to see more involvement.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And that's just part of it.
Speaker A:And that's why the states want shared parenting.
Speaker A:And if you don't have evidence of, like, extreme amounts of abuse and stuff, like, you're.
Speaker A:You're still.
Speaker A:Your child is still going to be having contacts, whether.
Speaker A:Even if it's supervised.
Speaker A:So how do we work with that?
Speaker A:You're not gonna convince the court that that person is cut out of their lives.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:What are we gonna do?
Speaker A:Like, we have to figure it out, and we need to think about what it's like for your child.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And so it's very, very hard, obviously, for victims of domestic violence who are just like, but this person just like, broke my arm while I was hold in front of my other kids.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Like, how.
Speaker A:How am I supposed.
Speaker A:So it's just like, okay.
Speaker A:But we completely understand.
Speaker A:Lots of validation.
Speaker A:Like, it's wrong, it's wrong, it's wrong.
Speaker A:But we have to figure out a plan within this system because you.
Speaker A:This is the reality of it.
Speaker A:So once they can kind of accept the reality of this is how it is, and we have to come up with a creative solution.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker A:And that's where a lot of times our lawyers are like, you guys are great.
Speaker A:Because as lawyers, we're not trained in strategy and you do something that we don't do.
Speaker A:So how can we figure this out?
Speaker A:That might not necessarily be exactly what we want, but it's something we can live with and it's something we can work on, and we can get some case management maybe and some therapy and other people to keep an eye.
Speaker A:So it's not just you being terrified that you're by yourself.
Speaker A:You know, there's so many ways to play it, but yes, we definitely have people who are doing the wrong thing, and that's actually better.
Speaker A:Just like therapists say it's Good to be able to work with the problem parent because then you can start fixing it.
Speaker C:Do you have.
Speaker C:I don't mean to be negative anyway, but no, please.
Speaker C:Do you think you and Chris have any biases?
Speaker A:Everybody has biases.
Speaker C:And do you think your bias can influence what you're doing or are you able to objectively just go, okay, I know I've got bias.
Speaker C:I'm aware of it.
Speaker C:I'm putting it aside.
Speaker A:I mean, we try.
Speaker A:Like a lot of times it's conscious.
Speaker A:Like sometimes we'll meet someone and be like, oh, I totally.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker C:That's what I mean.
Speaker C:I mean, you can be empathetic, but then you can be like, you know, if they're in your shoes or you've experienced, you've walked their mile.
Speaker C:You could essentially your bias, I mean, because I know in some of the work I do, I have to be very careful of my bias.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah, Very, very, very careful.
Speaker C:To me, it's because there's responsibility that you have.
Speaker C:You're taking everything that you're doing now, you and Chris together as a team.
Speaker C:I mean, the responsibility is huge.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So bias is interesting.
Speaker A:So I think once they pass muster because we screen all of our clients, then there are client, like, we believe them unless, you know, certain things come up and it's like, ooh, that one.
Speaker C:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker A:But other besides that, we're like, we are, we are on your side.
Speaker A:We are going to support you.
Speaker A:We are going to do everything we can.
Speaker A:And then the bi.
Speaker A:Like, there's no bias.
Speaker A:It's like we're your, we're your advocate and we're going to do everything we can to make sure you do.
Speaker A:You and the kids do as well as, as possible.
Speaker A:So yeah, I don't think that bias comes into it at that point.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:So because you've already pre screened them.
Speaker A:And we're like, right.
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:But then once they start talking the bias, I think, I mean, I don't want to not be self aware, but it's like it doesn't matter.
Speaker C:And that's why I'm challenging you, because I think that, you know, if you're, you've pre screened them.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:You don't think you've got bias.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So bias then I don't think maybe.
Speaker C:The cases that they're maybe the K1 case that they're maybe on or you're on with them and there's maybe.
Speaker C:There's maybe Chris has got an experience that triggers him and may.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:So maybe then that Trigger becomes more of a bias where you look.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker C:The empathy goes beyond and goes into more of a.
Speaker C:Even not aggressive role.
Speaker C:It's the wrong word, but you know what I mean?
Speaker C:Where he's.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:Where that you get triggered.
Speaker C:You could get triggered from your experiences.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker A:And then maybe generally trigger.
Speaker A:And you know what?
Speaker A:And that's interesting.
Speaker A:I'm glad you said that.
Speaker A:Because Chris has.
Speaker A:He talks about this sometimes publicly.
Speaker A:Is going into this role.
Speaker A:He thought he would be triggered a lot more, but I don't think either of us gets triggered.
Speaker C:No, right.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:I mean, there's a lot of space and experience between.
Speaker A:Like, we don't, we don't really get affected.
Speaker A:One thing that I think Chris, he's gotten a lot better is when people are traumatized, they talk really fast and they're all over the place.
Speaker A:Place.
Speaker A:And sometimes he'll be like, this person is going to be impossible to work with.
Speaker A:And I'll again, we text to each other.
Speaker A:I'll be like, I got it.
Speaker A:Or he'll be like, I am not writing a follow up.
Speaker A:And I'll be like, yes, you are.
Speaker A:I'll handle them.
Speaker A:I'll do it myself.
Speaker A:And then.
Speaker A:And then it changes.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:So I feel like I tend to be more open, but certain people, I'll be like, I don't like this person.
Speaker A:I'll be like, no, give them a chance.
Speaker A:But it's usually me being like, let's, let's just see.
Speaker A:They probably won't hire us anyway if they're that difficult.
Speaker A:Like, let's just see.
Speaker C:Do you get any feelings?
Speaker C:This is a field.
Speaker C:I obviously do have any intuitive feelings when before you even connect with a potential client that this is going to be easier, this is going to be bad.
Speaker C:Or I just, I don't feel like I could work with this person even.
Speaker A:Like just from seeing their name on paper.
Speaker C:Yeah, just seeing the name or even having a case history that comes to you and you're like, wait a minute.
Speaker C:There's something all right about this.
Speaker C:I don't think I can work with it.
Speaker A:Well, men on Friday afternoons often don't show up.
Speaker A:That's what we found.
Speaker A:If it's like Friday at 3 and it's a guy for the first time, he's not gonna show up.
Speaker A:We'll be like shocked.
Speaker C:So you know that.
Speaker A:If he shows up, then that's going to be our client.
Speaker A:But no, not, not usually.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:I mean, we never know.
Speaker A:I mean, that's, that's the thing with biases.
Speaker A:I'll be like, oh, like.
Speaker A:Or we'll see.
Speaker A:Or like.
Speaker A:I think sometimes our exes have, like, fake appointments.
Speaker A:They'll have, like, these names that were like, that's.
Speaker A:That's a fake name.
Speaker A:Like that.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Very rarely.
Speaker C:So they test you out.
Speaker C:They find out about you and they're like, yeah.
Speaker A:Or sometimes.
Speaker A:This was years ago.
Speaker C:Joe Smith.
Speaker A:Like, we.
Speaker A:We'd get, like, a thing.
Speaker A:It was a message, and it was like, that's.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And, yeah, Chris's ex just last.
Speaker A:Last year was like, I didn't realize it was her.
Speaker A:Started commenting on my TikTok, which I don't usually go on, and I had no idea.
Speaker A:And then I was like, oh, it was like a flurry.
Speaker A:And this is like 10, 11 years later.
Speaker C:Wow.
Speaker A:Yeah, that was weird.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker A:But not.
Speaker A:No, I don't.
Speaker A:I don't think, like, I feel anything beforehand, but I feel it when we're.
Speaker A:When we're meeting.
Speaker C:You're connected with them.
Speaker C:You're obviously.
Speaker A:And that's the other thing is I need to feel.
Speaker A:I need to feel sympathy, empathy.
Speaker A:Sometimes when we're talking to someone and they're crying and I feel nothing, I'm like, no, there's no transference.
Speaker A:Like, something is wrong.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:That's interesting.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker C:I find that interesting that you.
Speaker C:You'll pick that up and then you'll know.
Speaker A:It's rare because everybody cry.
Speaker A:Like, they made us.
Speaker A:Like, most people are crying and they're apologizing.
Speaker A:We always say, you never need to apologize for crying.
Speaker C:You can identify a fake crying as well.
Speaker A:A lot of acting sometimes when people are like, I don't want to turn my camera on.
Speaker A:Not always, but it's always like, why not?
Speaker A:Yes, because I want to see your face.
Speaker C:Yeah, well, obviously you can read their behavior.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:Lots of stuff with body language.
Speaker A:So I'm like, it makes me uncomfortable when people won't turn their phone.
Speaker C:So before we kind of round up and get into how lawyers can work with you and how people can.
Speaker C:Can connect with you, let's talk a bit about your book and your new book.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker C:But you.
Speaker C:Because you've.
Speaker C:All of this experience has culminated in you going, you know what?
Speaker C:I'm going to write a book.
Speaker C:How did that come about?
Speaker C:And tell everybody a little bit about your book.
Speaker C:Show it again so we can.
Speaker A:Okay, so this was the first book.
Speaker C:But you've got a second book coming up, obviously.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's actually.
Speaker A:And actually it's my third book coming out because my first book was about backpacking through Europe as a Rite of passage.
Speaker A:And I wrote that.
Speaker A: It came out in: Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And it did really well.
Speaker A:Lonely Planet was the publisher.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker A: e, this book that came out in: Speaker A:I started writing the book and then publishing because the first book did so well that I was like, oh, I'm a second time author.
Speaker A:I'm gonna do really great.
Speaker A:And publishers were like, no.
Speaker A:Travel and divorce are totally different.
Speaker A:You need to make yourself an expert.
Speaker A:Expert.
Speaker A:So that's when I started building our, like social media up and my classroom onto into, you know, the bigger.
Speaker A:The bigger scene.
Speaker A:So we started writing this book.
Speaker A:It got put on the back burner, then it got on the front burner, then it came out.
Speaker A: ome touring with this book in: Speaker A:Or actually Chris says he came up with the idea.
Speaker A:But somehow one of us in the car was like, the next book is going to be about when your ex turns the kids against you.
Speaker A:Because that is so common.
Speaker A:Baked right into legal abuse, our specialty.
Speaker A:So they're using the justice system and they're using the kids.
Speaker A:We've talked about all this stuff with the justice system.
Speaker A:Let's now focus on how they do it with the kids, why they do it, how they do it, what's beneath it, and then what you as the targeted parent can do.
Speaker A:Especially in.
Speaker C:I love that.
Speaker C:I don't want to go too deep into that because I know we're going.
Speaker A:To be here for hours.
Speaker C:And that's another episode.
Speaker C:But that's the one where you and Chris, you come on and we'll talk about that with the new book.
Speaker C:That would be fantastic.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:Actually talk about.
Speaker C:Because I think that in itself was a minefield.
Speaker A:It is.
Speaker A:22 million divorced parents in America and Canada alone are experiencing this.
Speaker A:It is epidemic.
Speaker C:Wow.
Speaker A:Way bigger than high conflict divorce.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:And there is.
Speaker A:And it is silent because I always mention this.
Speaker A:Think about God forbid if you had a child who died.
Speaker A:You have the community rallying around you, supporting you.
Speaker A:When you have a child that doesn't talk to you, what did you do wrong?
Speaker A:Judgment.
Speaker A:Shame.
Speaker A:You must be a terrible parent.
Speaker A:And for women in particular, with the mother thing and the identity in this day and age, it's like, oh, my gosh.
Speaker A:So we have many brokenhearted parents dealing with this.
Speaker C:So let's talk a little bit about how people can work with you and how lawyers can work with you.
Speaker A:Okay, so lawyers, often lawyers, if it's not already a client coming through their lawyer, a lawyer will reach out and say, let's talk and figure out ways to collaborate.
Speaker A:So, I mean, our website is been theregotout.com which we'll link in the show.
Speaker C:Notes and the books and everything else.
Speaker A:Yeah, absolutely, Lisa.
Speaker A:In theregottout.com which is just write to me and we'll set up a time to meet if it's a lawyer.
Speaker A:We also have times where a couple client will come on with their lawyer.
Speaker A:They'll say, I, I want my lawyer to.
Speaker A:I mean, then they're paying their lawyer and they're paying us.
Speaker A:But I want my lawyer to understand because we are like a team approach.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker A:We have a client who's actually whose parent is a divorce attorney.
Speaker A:And we all get together because the.
Speaker A:The parent is not representing their child but is very involved.
Speaker A:We actually had a.
Speaker A:So we screened the client, and then the client was like, my parent wants to meet you because they want to know exactly what you do.
Speaker A:So I.
Speaker A:So then we had another meeting and I was like, okay, you have questions like, what are they?
Speaker A:And then at the end, the.
Speaker A:The divorce attorney was like, no, you.
Speaker A:This is going to be great.
Speaker A:And we've had a great relationship.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Working with the parent and child, who are both adults, obviously.
Speaker C:That's fantastic.
Speaker C:Lisa, I. I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation, even though we had a little blip with the connections.
Speaker C:I want to get you to come back on and obviously talk with you and Chris and talk about the next, you know, the next stage, especially dealing when kids, you know, are used as weapons, essentially are used as weapons.
Speaker A:They are, yeah.
Speaker C:Let everybody know your website, your details and how they can.
Speaker C:I mean, you say they can email you, but you've got a big following as well on Instagram.
Speaker A:And Yeah, so Instagram is beentheregotout with little under underscores in between.
Speaker A:We have a podcast called Been There, Got out.
Speaker A:We have a YouTube channel, been there, Got Out.
Speaker A:The next book is Been There, Got Out.
Speaker A:When youn Ex Turns the Kids Again.
Speaker A:Everything just been there, got out.
Speaker A:And you will find us.
Speaker A:And it's just Chris and I, so we always answer.
Speaker C:I love that.
Speaker C:I love that.
Speaker C:Lisa, it's been a fantastic conversation.
Speaker C:Thank you for being a guest on Legal Owl.
Speaker C:Ladies and gentlemen, if you're a lawyer and you're dealing with high conflict divorce, or even the next case, if you've got cases here that people are Struggling through this potential.
Speaker C:What you've heard today, then please reach out to Lisa and Chris for that help.
Speaker C:And of course, we don't just have lawyers that listen to us within the Help Lawyer network.
Speaker C:We have people that reach out that are looking for divorce attorneys and things.
Speaker C:It's very important, ladies and gentlemen, that you know who to trust.
Speaker C:Use your intuition, learn about them.
Speaker C:Look at the experience from what you've heard today.
Speaker C:It should give you a really good insight at what you're potentially looking at.
Speaker C:And we haven't even talked to Lisa about the laws that she changed.
Speaker C:So she's got to come back.
Speaker C:There's so much that we could cover on this.
Speaker C:It's been fabulous.
Speaker C:Help-Lawyer.com you'll be able to connect with Lisa from our podcast and everything will be linked below.
Speaker C:Lisa, again, thank you for being with me on the Legal Oil.
Speaker C:I can't wait to do more episodes with you and get more into the trenches and challenge you even more into different things, which is great.
Speaker C:What's one final thing that you could.
Speaker C:I want you to give just two final things, actually.
Speaker C:One for a lawyer and one for someone going through high conflict divorce.
Speaker C:One takeaway that they could change them from today.
Speaker A:You know what?
Speaker A:I think it's going to be the same advice.
Speaker C:Great.
Speaker A:I don't have my little button in front of me, but I used to teach high school English and I have a little button that says, if you think education is expensive, try ignorance.
Speaker A:Ignorance is what destroys us.
Speaker C:Yes, that's true.
Speaker A:The takeaway is you can learn.
Speaker A:A lot of this stuff is counterintuitive.
Speaker A:It can feel really uncomfortable, but you can learn.
Speaker A:You can learn strategic communication.
Speaker A:You can learn to be a better lawyer for your clients.
Speaker A:So you can learn.
Speaker A:That's.
Speaker A:That's.
Speaker A:The takeaway is like it.
Speaker A:It's not.
Speaker A:Change is not comfortable.
Speaker C:No, it's not.
Speaker A:You can learn.
Speaker A:And you should learn because it, it has such deep impacts in your profession, in your life, for your children.
Speaker A:Like, we want to stop intergenerational trauma so you can learn for yourself.
Speaker C:Love it.
Speaker C:Love it.
Speaker C:Thank you, Lisa.
Speaker C:Thank you very much.
Speaker C:Ladies and gentlemen, this is the Legal owl, or Legal owl.
Speaker C:Please join us again.
Speaker C:We have other guests coming up, and obviously we've got a lot more to discuss in the future.
Speaker C:I'm looking forward to having Lisa and Chris back on so that we can talk about the next stage.
Speaker C:And we'll put a link to the book.
Speaker C:Buy the book if you haven't.
Speaker C:The book will be transformational for you as well and we'll give you some deep insights.
Speaker C:I haven't read it because obviously I'm not going through a high conflict divorce, but just talking to you and hearing about it, I can wholly stand behind it.
Speaker C:And we'll promote this through Help Lawyer as well.
Speaker C:Lisa, thank you very much for joining me today.
Speaker A:My pleasure.
Speaker A:I can't wait for the next conversation.
Speaker C:God bless.
Speaker B:You've been listening to the Legal owl, where law meets the unseen layers of clarity, leadership, and inner alignment.
Speaker B:If this sparks something in you, trust that feeling.
Speaker B:Let it lead you for deeper insights, real conversation, and strategic guidance.
Speaker B:Connect through the Help Lawyer network and subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts.
Speaker B:If you prefer a more private connection, you'll find the path when you're ready.
Speaker B:Until next time, stay present, think deeper, and lead wiser.
