Understanding Trademarks: Protecting the Public and Your Brand
The primary focus of this podcast episode is the intricate relationship between intellectual property, specifically patents and trademarks, and their pivotal role in safeguarding innovation and business identity. I engage in a profound discourse with Austin Bonderer, an esteemed intellectual property attorney, who elucidates the multifaceted nature of patents, encompassing their significance, the complexities of obtaining them, and the potential pitfalls that inventors may encounter. We explore the critical distinction between patents and trademarks, emphasizing the necessity for entrepreneurs to secure their brand identity through trademark registration. Moreover, we delve into the strategic implications of intellectual property in fostering economic growth and competitive advantage in the marketplace. This episode ultimately serves as a comprehensive guide for business owners and innovators seeking to navigate the convoluted landscape of intellectual property protection.
The podcast delves into the intricate nature of intellectual property, specifically focusing on the dichotomy between patents and trademarks. The speakers elucidate that while patents are often perceived as mere protective measures for inventions, their true essence lies in fostering innovation by granting inventors exclusive rights for a specified duration. They discuss the various types of patents, including utility and design patents, and emphasize that the latter protects the aesthetic aspects of a product, which can be pivotal in industries such as fashion. The conversation transitions to the importance of trademarks, which serve not only to protect the brand identity of a product but also to safeguard consumer interests by ensuring that products are accurately represented in the market. The speakers highlight that trademarks encompass logos, names, and even distinctive product design features, urging entrepreneurs to consider them essential for establishing a reputable business. This comprehensive exploration underscores the necessity for businesses to navigate the complexities of intellectual property to secure their innovations and maintain competitive advantages in their respective markets.
Takeaways:
- The primary function of trademarks is to protect the public by ensuring brand integrity and consumer trust.
- Intellectual property, particularly patents, serves as a vital mechanism for incentivizing innovation and economic growth.
- The podcast emphasizes the importance of strategic intuitive intelligence in navigating legal systems and sustaining a successful career in law.
- Listeners are encouraged to consider the ramifications of patenting and trademarking as foundational elements in business strategy.
- The discussion outlines the differences between various types of patents and their specific applications in protecting inventions and methods.
- The necessity of understanding the legal landscape surrounding intellectual property is underscored for entrepreneurs and established businesses alike.
Companies mentioned in this episode:
- Help Lawyer Network
- Legal Owl
- 62 Romeo Sleep Foundation
- Ryan Larkin Invitational Adventure Race
Transcript
While it does provide a lot of value to the owners who own them and protect them and all this other kind of stuff is actually there to protect the public.
Speaker B:Oh, I didn't know that.
Speaker B:Really?
Speaker B:So trademark is to protect the public.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:It's enable you to make quick economic decisions.
Speaker C:You've entered Legal Al where sharp legal minds meet the power of Strategic Intuitive Intelligence and inner awareness.
Speaker C:Hosted by someone that is a veteran, an author and is an individual experienced in specialist security operations.
Speaker C:Strategic Intuitive Intelligence and transformational psychology.
Speaker C:This is not your typical legal podcast.
Speaker C:We explore what most lawyers never say out loud.
Speaker C:Burnout, grief, inner dissonance and what it really takes to sustain a legal career with clarity, purpose and personal alignment alongside powerful solo insights.
Speaker C:You'll hear thought provoking conversations with members of the Help Lawyer Network, Lawyers, legal support professionals and expert witnesses sharing real stories from the front lines.
Speaker C:This is the space where law meets what's rarely talked about.
Speaker C:Welcome to Legal owl.
Speaker C:Where wisdom meets the law and Strategic Intuitive intelligence guides the way.
Speaker B:Good morning, good evening, good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, wherever you are.
Speaker B:This is John here.
Speaker B:This is Legal Owl.
Speaker B:Welcome back to another episode.
Speaker B:Before I introduce my guest, I just want to thank everybody for listening.
Speaker B:Thank everybody who has been subscribing and and also for us that are technology buffs that love tech.
Speaker B:I received a beautiful letter, a little handwritten letter from a lawyer who came on our show, came on the podcast, one of our members in the Help Lawyer network who had just joined and has sent and I was so shocked because when was the last time we ever received a handlet written thank you note or anything like that?
Speaker B:It's made me think about doing the same kind of thing.
Speaker B:So guys, maybe we need to think about going back to some old school ways of doing things.
Speaker B:It means an awful lot and I was really overjoyed actually receiving that.
Speaker B:So we had a great conversation.
Speaker B:This was Stephanie Presnig and you should go and listen to her episodes which she deals with.
Speaker B:We talked about this actually last time.
Speaker B:I'm going to introduce you in a minute.
Speaker B:We talked about this before and it was a fantastic episode.
Speaker B:But I have a great episode for you today.
Speaker B:My guest is eternally Austin Bonderer, who is an intellectual, I would like to say, an intellectual property guru.
Speaker B:And if you didn't know the difference between intellectual property and trademarks and all of the above, then this is going to be the one for you and Austin.
Speaker B:Welcome to the League of Law, my friend.
Speaker B:How are you doing?
Speaker A:Oh, pretty good, thanks for having me.
Speaker B:I'm Glad to get you in.
Speaker B:That's quite shocking that I had a written note like that idea.
Speaker B:Like, I was unbelievable.
Speaker A:I would have to.
Speaker A:I would have to handwrite the note and then put a translation so people could understand what I actually wrote.
Speaker A:If that was ever something I would do.
Speaker B:It was funny because she emailed me afterwards and says, can you read the note?
Speaker B:Kind of thing.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker B:Send me email.
Speaker B:But it was a beautiful thing you actually received.
Speaker B:Ladies and gentlemen, before you get back into the episode, I have a huge ask below.
Speaker B:There's going to be a link and if you click that link, it's going to take you to a page.
Speaker B:And that page is about the Ryan Larkin Invitational Adventure Race.
Speaker B:It has been set up by a foundation, 62 Romeo Sleep Foundation.
Speaker B:And I have a colleague of mine that's taking part in this race.
Speaker B:It is a race that is going over 62 miles over three days in Colorado in June.
Speaker B:And we are raising funds to support this excellent cause.
Speaker B:We've lost many veterans to suicide.
Speaker B:Many.
Speaker B:The numbers are just astronomical.
Speaker B:One veteran to suicide is enough.
Speaker B:The numbers that we get on a daily basis is just.
Speaker B:Is exploding.
Speaker B:And so we have organizations like this that are now trying to combat veteran suicide, supporting veterans when they come back from duty and they fight an even greater war.
Speaker B:And the 62 Romeo project is run by a gentleman by the name of Rob Sweetman, and he is developed the Sleep 101 program for first responders and veterans, law enforcement.
Speaker B:And it's phenomenal.
Speaker B:And this Ryan Larkin Adventure race is also in memory of Ryan Larkin, who was a Navy seal.
Speaker B:And so please support this organization, support this race, and especially support my friend that is in Team Relentless.
Speaker B:Team Relentless is the team that's going forward to the race.
Speaker B:It is a race, as I said, over three days, 62 miles.
Speaker B:And each team, there's 10 teams.
Speaker B:And each team will be taking part on tests, strategic tests that are that I don't even know what's going to happen over them, but these are going to be military tests that they're going to do over this period of time, helping to test them to the resilience, their skills, their adaptability, and also their team resilience, the team building as well.
Speaker B:So please support this phenomenal cause, support Team Relentless by offering your donation today to support veterans.
Speaker B:I'm a fellow veteran.
Speaker B:I support all veterans.
Speaker B:Please join me in supporting veterans.
Speaker B:No matter whether you're a British veteran like me or whether you're an American veteran, we're all brothers and sisters in arms and we all Support one another.
Speaker B:So please click the link below, go to the page, and support team Relentless, who will be taking part in the Ryan Larkin Invitational Adventure race in June.
Speaker B:And those dates and everything about that will be underneath.
Speaker B:Let's get back to the show.
Speaker B:God bless Austin.
Speaker B:Tell everybody a little bit about you and how you became a lawyer, what you were, you know, what got you in the interest into law.
Speaker A:Well, basically, I mean, it was.
Speaker A:It kind of started off when I was a younger kid, I guess, getting me into this patent field.
Speaker A:I've always been more of a technical person.
Speaker A:So when I went to school, I went to school for engineering and order to be a patent attorney, you have to have an engineering or science background before you go to law school.
Speaker A:And it basically started for me.
Speaker A:My dad's house almost caught on fire in southern Mississippi.
Speaker A:And so that summer as a kid, I was the little one.
Speaker A:So I got to climb up in the attic in the hot summertime and help him install a smoke detection system.
Speaker A:But back then, they were all wired, so I kind of.
Speaker A:It's like this.
Speaker A:Something's got to be easier.
Speaker A:So, you know, so I always thought in my head, and I just basically came up with the idea of, like, hey, when those wireless doorbells came out, I built this prototype, and it was basically smoke detector with those doorbells.
Speaker A:So if it detected smoke, it would, you know, do its normal thing, but it would also send out a wireless signal.
Speaker A:The other end of that doorbell would make the other one go off.
Speaker A:Idea being it would become a mesh system, or you just, you know, put them up.
Speaker A:They have batteries.
Speaker A:No one would have to go in the attic like I did.
Speaker A:I would save all these kids or anybody else from having to go up in the attic.
Speaker A:Summertime and hot.
Speaker A:This is it.
Speaker A:So that's what I came up with.
Speaker A:That was my senior thesis.
Speaker A:I looked at patenting it, and I got interested in the patent system.
Speaker A:And at the time, they were hiring at the patent office.
Speaker A:So I went and worked there.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:There for five and a half years.
Speaker A:You know, to me, it was kind of like a boot camp.
Speaker A:It really, you know, when it comes to patent prosecution, probably one of the best educations you can have just from the sheer number of cases that you deal with, because then you're able to deal with so many different issues.
Speaker A:So while working at the patent office, I went to law school at night.
Speaker A:And then once I graduated, I moved to the other side.
Speaker A:The revolving door, I call it, I guess.
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:I wasn't a lobbyist or Anything.
Speaker A:So there's nothing wrong with that.
Speaker A:So, you know, I just moved the other side, became the outside patent attorney.
Speaker A:And that's, that's pretty much how that, how it happened.
Speaker B:Now why, let's talk about a little bit of difference.
Speaker B:Because some people don't understand what patents are and there's a lot of, and I think it's important because there's a lot of companies out there, there's a lot of entrepreneurs, if you like, like you had an idea to develop a product.
Speaker B:I work with a scientist, a toxicologist who's always dealing with people's patents because you know, it could be a watch strap that has a compound in it that can be dangerous.
Speaker B:And so he's dealing with these things.
Speaker B:But people don't understand what a patent is and why they would need it.
Speaker B:So let's let them know about that.
Speaker A:Well, I guess the simplest way to describe it is that our founders, especially in the US but this was based upon the European system, the English system, they offer, you know, grants of patents.
Speaker A:In fact, it's even in the Constitution that inventors for a limited amount of time shall have exclusive rights to their inventions.
Speaker A:So basically the idea is that they understood that if we incentivized invention we would move society further improve the economy and do all the stuff.
Speaker A:So basically at the end of the day, it's a govern government granted monopoly to prevent others from making, using or selling your claimed invention that's described in the patent.
Speaker A:And you're able to prevent, for a limited amount of time.
Speaker A:Our current time frame is 20 years from the date of filing.
Speaker A:It may take three to four years before you get the patent issued.
Speaker A:And you really don't have any rights until it issues.
Speaker A:But once you have it issued, you're supposed to have exclusive rights to what's covered by the claims.
Speaker B:You know, that, that kind of, that brings up the question for me then if you're supposed to have the exclusive rights to that, there seems to be more copies of somebody's idea.
Speaker B:Somebody has an idea and a company, an entrepreneur or a businessman is out there, you may have an idea, you came up with an idea, you put it together and you can't, you know, you should patent it, but you don't.
Speaker B:Or even if you do patent it, there seems to be this belief, once I patent it, I'm protected.
Speaker B:But, and correct me if I'm wrong, Austin, that doesn't seem to happen because we've got so many fakes, so many copies.
Speaker B:Someone takes an idea, copies it, labels it themselves, where does that come in and how is that business person protected?
Speaker A:Well, you kind of have three different issues here.
Speaker A:So, you know, in business, one of the things is I tell people when you come out with your primary brand and the high end brand, the expensive one, you should be working on your own knockoff right off the bat.
Speaker A:Really.
Speaker A:Well, think about it.
Speaker A:You got price points, so someone's going to claim that market.
Speaker A:You might as well claim it and kick them out.
Speaker A:You know, don't let people know.
Speaker A:I mean, but think about BMW and Minis.
Speaker A:It's basically same manufacturer, same old stuff, but different price points.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:So, you know, that's one of the things I tell my clients is like, look, when you hit the market, you should.
Speaker A:And it's, it's hitting and it's doing really well.
Speaker A:You should start looking at your.
Speaker A:Not your own knockoff.
Speaker B:I have never, Austin, I have never heard that.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:That is the first.
Speaker B:See, every day is a school day, guys.
Speaker B:Like, this is the first time.
Speaker B:Let's really work on your own knockoff.
Speaker A:Yeah, you want to capture, you want to capture all the money that's out there.
Speaker A:So you know, there are people always going to pay for the high end.
Speaker A:So you might as well grab people, pay for the low end too.
Speaker B:That's genius.
Speaker B:Yeah, I never even had.
Speaker B:And is this a standard practice or is this something you just came up with?
Speaker A:No, I learned it from.
Speaker A:Obviously learned it from someone else.
Speaker A:I would love to take credit that that was my idea.
Speaker A:This guy was actually the person I learned it from was a guy who did like those TV commercials, products.
Speaker A:He would find products, throw them up on the tv if they hit, then he would already start developing the knockoff.
Speaker B:That's that.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:All right, I get that.
Speaker B:I've never.
Speaker B:That shocked me, but I can see the reality of it because let's face it, you have.
Speaker B:The way I see it is if you have an idea and you develop something like I developed something, which we'll talk about later.
Speaker A:But you know what, that should be true whether you have a patent or not.
Speaker B:Is that the same even with a trademark?
Speaker B:Then if you've got an idea where you, if you trademark something, you should still also be looking at bringing something else out on the back end of that.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:I mean, so yeah, you have high end price, you got your manufacturing already set up.
Speaker A:Might as well have a lower end product that doesn't tarnish the name of your higher end product.
Speaker B:This is.
Speaker B:We never thought it was going to go this way in this conversation, but wouldn't this is the beauty of it here in legal.
Speaker B:Wouldn't someone.
Speaker B:Then let's say you have, you have, you're an entrepreneur.
Speaker B:You've let your doorbell system that you identified and you brought it out and then you brought a knockoff.
Speaker B:Let's say then would you not lose trust and really even not so much market share.
Speaker B:But if I know that you've got a knockoff product and I find out and you've all got a higher value product, doesn't that make that dangerous to you?
Speaker B:Because then who, where do you get loyalty and trust in that?
Speaker A:Well, you try to separate yourself from it, you know, from separate.
Speaker B:You mean separate companies?
Speaker B:Look, separate companies.
Speaker A:Separate LLC or same LLC but two different DBAs.
Speaker A:You just somehow try to separate.
Speaker A:I mean, like I said, I mean you have, you have it in auto manufacturing.
Speaker A:We all know that a Toyota, a Lexus is a Toyota.
Speaker A:People still buy the Lexus.
Speaker B:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker A:It's the exact same car with a little bit more bells and whistles and a little bit nicer looking.
Speaker A:But at the end of the day, everything in there is a Toyota.
Speaker B:And a MINI is a BMW.
Speaker B:Yeah, essentially.
Speaker A:Well, kinda, yeah, they're a little different.
Speaker A:But I think the better analogy, and I probably shouldn't have used it, would be like Toyota, Lexus, you know, Ford and well, I forgot what the Ford, Lincolns, you know, those kind of things.
Speaker B:Lincoln, navigate.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:Yeah, but you try to separate it and then, you know, and then I said there were three points.
Speaker A:So another point that you would have is that understand when you think of a patent and you think about protection, don't think of it like a wall protecting you, it's more like a minefield.
Speaker A:So every little claim distinctly claims something and it's a limitation, you know, kind of when you read claims, you think of it like a laundry list.
Speaker A:And an infringing product has to have every single one of those elements in order to infringe.
Speaker A:Now part of my business is I have clients come up to me and say, hey, we want to build this, but we found this patent.
Speaker A:What do we do?
Speaker B:So I was going to ask you that someday.
Speaker B:Yeah, okay.
Speaker B:You have an idea like.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So we look at the claims, we analyze them and we say, hey, you know, we're going to try, maybe you omit one of the elements.
Speaker A:And as we know, people are willing to pay, you know, less for an inferior product all the time.
Speaker A:So don't.
Speaker A:When you know.
Speaker A:And so we, we try to fortify this with continuation practice.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:If you are able to keep your patent alive.
Speaker A:I think the EU discourages this, but in the United States, we haven't had any discouragement yet.
Speaker A:So once we file for a patent, we get a patent issued, we file continuation.
Speaker A:And the idea is to keep the patent alive, the patent family alive, because we're writing, we're throwing.
Speaker A:It's like one of those things when you put down a minefield, it's because you don't know where the enemy's coming and you only have so many minds.
Speaker A:So you put it where you think it's a.
Speaker A:It's a crystal ball.
Speaker A:You don't know.
Speaker A:So what we do is we file continuation practice in.
Speaker A:Definitely do this if you're manufacturing a product.
Speaker A:So we keep it alive.
Speaker A:And then if a knockoff comes out or a competitor, there's a possibility that we have that invention in the disclosure, the originally filed disclosure.
Speaker A:We just haven't claimed it properly.
Speaker A:Go after them.
Speaker A:But once we know where the enemy is coming from, it's much easier to lay out your minefield and try and catch them that way.
Speaker B:What about someone who's invented a product, and I get what you're saying, and you mentioned that, okay, maybe he's changed it.
Speaker B:Maybe they've taken something away from it so then they can use that because they've got an idea.
Speaker B:But what if somebody, let's say, for instance, I don't know the best analogy, somebody's done a product that opens that way, but you've developed it to open this way because it has a better spatial or whatever it is that works with the.
Speaker B:So what if it.
Speaker B:If it's the same, but it just changes the way it operates?
Speaker A:It will have to.
Speaker A:It will depend upon the exact same language.
Speaker A:So it's very specific.
Speaker A:If in the patent claim that you're trying to get around, said it moved one way and it made a big deal about it moving one way, and then you decided to move it the other way.
Speaker A:You're.
Speaker A:It's not claimed.
Speaker A:You're.
Speaker A:You're in.
Speaker A:Your product does not infringe it.
Speaker B:Oh, wow.
Speaker A:So it's very specific.
Speaker A:So, you know, the way I tell people is, you know, you claim elements A, B and C, and if someone omits C, then they're not infringed.
Speaker B:What are the biggest traps for people then?
Speaker B:What traps should businesses look for legally in terms of their patents?
Speaker B:Because anybody has an idea, they say, okay, I'm gonna patent.
Speaker B:This is my idea.
Speaker B:What is the traps that they should be looking for that they, they would use as A professional attorney would be like, you're never going to see this.
Speaker B:But I know this is going to happen.
Speaker B:Almost like foresight, like intuition.
Speaker B:I know it's going to happen.
Speaker B:What's these traps that you can let them know about?
Speaker A:Well, I mean, if it's going to make money, people are going to try to get around your path.
Speaker A:I mean, that's just the way it is.
Speaker A:I mean, so the trap, you know, I don't really know if there's a trap in the patent world.
Speaker A:I guess the biggest issue is that the problem with anything, and I'm sure you've done this before, you go tell a friend of your idea of yours, and if they're intelligent and stuff like that, it's going to spur their ideas.
Speaker B:Yeah, well, that's true.
Speaker B:Anybody's ideas.
Speaker B:I mean, I've picked ideas up anybody, and I've changed it.
Speaker B:And other people pick up ideas.
Speaker B:And even I see it all the time in publishing.
Speaker B:Someone will write a book and they'll like, oh, you know, I could write that different, differently.
Speaker B:And that comes in.
Speaker B:Obviously you can patent that, but.
Speaker B:Right, I get a tree.
Speaker B:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And there's an intelligence analogy, actually about that.
Speaker B:When you shake the tree and find out what comes out and then you've got data that spills out.
Speaker B:I can see, I can see that.
Speaker B:But they're obviously.
Speaker B:So here's my thing, though.
Speaker B:What's the point?
Speaker B:Because at the end of the day, if you're going to have an idea, bring a patent, somebody's going to copy it, you're going to end up, you're going to end up losing out.
Speaker B:Or is there a.
Speaker B:Can you go against somebody that.
Speaker B:That's my patent.
Speaker B:You can't do this.
Speaker A:Oh, totally.
Speaker A:I mean, you, you know, it helps that you have, you know, countries that are, you know, the rule of law is very important.
Speaker A:So here in the US they really do value patent rights.
Speaker A:You know, there are certain Asian countries, you know, that you may have a problem enforcing your patent rights.
Speaker A:And, you know, that spills over into these countries because the.
Speaker A:They are just going to bring it.
Speaker A:They know money is involved.
Speaker A:I mean, we've all seen it here in the city and.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:You can get, you know, one of those fancy Birkin bags that ladies like, you know, I only found out about.
Speaker B:Them the other day.
Speaker B:I don't know if you, if you watch the American.
Speaker B:Oh, God.
Speaker B:What?
Speaker B:This was the program where the woman was talking about the Birkin bag.
Speaker B:Traitors.
Speaker B:You seen that?
Speaker A:No, I haven't seen it.
Speaker B:That's phenomenal.
Speaker B:And the woman was taught with a Birkin bag.
Speaker B:And I went and I looked was like, what the.
Speaker B:Why would someone pay, like, nearly half a million dollars or $100,000 for a bag?
Speaker A:Oh, yeah.
Speaker A:And I mean, they're, I mean, the brilliance of them.
Speaker A:They're.
Speaker A:Don't.
Speaker A:You.
Speaker A:You, like, you can't go buy one.
Speaker A:You have to be on a list or something, and it's ridiculous.
Speaker B:But think about how many that patent's probably been broken or something's happened.
Speaker B:Because now how many.
Speaker B:I mean, you see that.
Speaker B:And I, I.
Speaker A:But they rely on trademarks, so that's more of a trademark issue.
Speaker A:It's a source of good.
Speaker A:So generally, when people are.
Speaker A:Are knocking off, it's your trade dress, it's your trademark.
Speaker A:That's the issue.
Speaker A:Now you can get a design patent on the way something looks, which is different than a utility patent.
Speaker A:Utility patent is kind of how it, you know, what we generally think of when we think of a patent is, hey, you know, this item works this way, and this is the new way of doing it.
Speaker B:So that's a utility patent.
Speaker B:All right.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:But the design.
Speaker A:So I tell my clients, like, look, when we're about to hit the market, let's get a design patent on the way your product looks.
Speaker A:So we can try to prevent knockoffs that way.
Speaker A:And I also kind of look at it as, you know, it helps protect.
Speaker A:So say you're.
Speaker A:You're developing molds or, you know, some kind of item in the manufacturing process.
Speaker A:And the old joke was they work for you for eight hours, and they work for your competitor for 16.
Speaker A:So the hope is, is that the design patent will help protect your molds and these items that you have to create during the manufacturing process, even if it's done overseas.
Speaker A:So the design.
Speaker A:And plus it, you know, it's another way of protecting your brand.
Speaker A:This is what my product looks like.
Speaker A:You can't make something that looks just like it.
Speaker A:And you even get one of those.
Speaker A:If you can't get a utility patent, even if you have something that's not novel, like, you know, like a soap dish or something.
Speaker A:Yeah, but you want.
Speaker A:You like your design of your soap dish, so you make your soap dish look like this, and.
Speaker A:And you have a design patent that covers it.
Speaker A:People can make soap dishes.
Speaker A:They can even make, say yours was a soap dish of a frog.
Speaker A:They could make a soap dish that looks like a frog.
Speaker A:They just can't make the soap dish that looks like your frog.
Speaker B:So would you then see that these companies.
Speaker B:Because I didn't realize there's different types of patent.
Speaker B:You have the design patent, you have the utility patent.
Speaker B:Is there any other patterns that we're missing?
Speaker A:There's a plant patent, but I've never seen one.
Speaker A:Personally.
Speaker A:I guess it's kind of like if you develop a new flower or plant or anything like that.
Speaker A:This.
Speaker A:I'm very ignorant on that.
Speaker A:I've never seen one.
Speaker A:I've never met or someone who works with them.
Speaker A:But if you do come up with a new flower or this or that, you can patent.
Speaker B:Actually, I think that Cosmic Crisp apples are a plant patent, possibly because you can.
Speaker B:And the only reason I know that is because I went into the cause where I live here in North Carolina, there's loads of orchards, and I tasted this apple and I'm like, that's amazing.
Speaker B:And I went into there and I said, have you got anything close to this?
Speaker B:No.
Speaker B:That's patented.
Speaker B:That we can't even grow that.
Speaker A:Yeah, well, that's the.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So you can patent seeds in different.
Speaker A:So take Monsanto.
Speaker A:And you know, it's.
Speaker A:It's an interesting case.
Speaker A:I don't agree with it, but Monsanto, you can patent the genetically modified product, right.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker A:And you can upload the d. The sequences and stuff like this.
Speaker A:I've never touched it.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:So, you know, I'm just giving you.
Speaker B:Like, that's a minefield in itself.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:But then, like, Monsanto would go out.
Speaker A:So they plant these fields.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:Monsanto.
Speaker A:And then the wind would carry a seed over into another person's yard.
Speaker A:They were able to sue that person for patent infringement.
Speaker A:Yeah, I know.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:So where.
Speaker B:Where is this act of God in that and.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah, because it's craz.
Speaker A:Well, you know, it's kind of one of those things that the law doesn't cover everything.
Speaker A:Well, it's a sledgehammer.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:Well, there's always spaces within the law.
Speaker B:Within the space.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So, you know, the law is, you know, kind of like, hey, this covers 99 of it.
Speaker A:1% Is going to get, you know, the butt end of this.
Speaker A:And I think that's part of what it is because the law is very clear.
Speaker A:You cannot use, make.
Speaker A:You cannot make, use or sell a patented product.
Speaker A:And if it's on your property, it is your item.
Speaker A:And if it violates a patent, it violates a patent.
Speaker A:Which I just thought, you know, hey, they have, you know, technically, I'd be like, well, then you're trespassing on my property.
Speaker A:Your stuff's on My property, you trespass.
Speaker A:I don't care when brought it over.
Speaker A:But then again, you know, the other law for trespass would probably say if the wind brings something over that's not.
Speaker A:But, you know, you have a duty to retrieve it or something like that.
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker B:But that is shocking that that case is shocking that they would.
Speaker B:That would be a breach of their.
Speaker A:That was.
Speaker A:Yeah, that case was probably when I was in law school.
Speaker A:And I remember just thinking about it like, wow, how inherently unfair.
Speaker A:But again, the law.
Speaker A:The law is like that.
Speaker A:Sometimes they can't make it where it works for everybody.
Speaker B:So as a business owner out there that's maybe looking at that.
Speaker B:Would you say them that.
Speaker B:Look, you need to have whatever is your utility patent and a design patent, like two of these together rather than just the one.
Speaker B:Because then if there's not.
Speaker A:Well, I mean, just because different layers of protection and they protect different things.
Speaker A:So, you know, design patent helps you protect a brand.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:See, and that's where people maybe don't understand that.
Speaker B:So you.
Speaker B:I didn't even know you could have a design pattern, so your brand could be on something, a T shirt, a bag or whatever.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:So that would be your trademark.
Speaker A:Like, I guess what I'm trying to say is, you know, you're known for making a product that looks just like this.
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker A:Your bottle, I mean, is kind of.
Speaker A:So a design patent can move into a trademark because of trade dress.
Speaker A:But you know, just think the Coca Cola.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking.
Speaker B:That's what was confusing me because it sounds like that design, patent and trademark overlap.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:So you have a Coca Cola bottle and after.
Speaker A:After a certain amount of time, it determines it has so much distinctiveness.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:As Coca Cola's bottle, that everyone knows that shape of bottle is Coca Cola without even looking at the label.
Speaker A:So it identifies a source of goods.
Speaker A:And the weird thing about trademarks.
Speaker A:So a patent is your property.
Speaker A:It's all about you, and you're the inventor.
Speaker A:And all this stuff, trademarks, while it does provide a lot of value to the owners who own them and protect them and all this other kind of stuff is actually there to protect the public.
Speaker B:Oh, I didn't know that.
Speaker B:Really.
Speaker B:So trademark is to protect the public.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:It's enabled you to make quick economic decisions.
Speaker A:So you are going out there and say that you're going to go eat at something that looks like McDonald's, but it's not.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:And you didn't do the due diligence of Looking up who owned it or any of this stuff.
Speaker A:But hey, it had golden arches out front.
Speaker A:I, it's McDonald's.
Speaker A:I'm going in.
Speaker A:I know what a Big Mac tastes like.
Speaker A:This is what I wanted.
Speaker A:So it's there to protect you.
Speaker A:So anytime you walked into something that looks like McDonald's, it is McDonald's.
Speaker B:Ah, right.
Speaker B:Okay, I get that now.
Speaker B:I see that.
Speaker B:Which makes sense.
Speaker B:So before we started talking, I told you about a friend of mine who has a.
Speaker B:And I, I, I Pest.
Speaker B:He's in pest control.
Speaker B:Can't talk about the case as much, but he had that kind of issue.
Speaker B:I didn't realize that it's really there to protect the public and was.
Speaker B:I think it's a very difficult case because he, he has, he's now gone for his own trademark.
Speaker B:But this other company that.
Speaker B:We're trying to sue him.
Speaker B:We're trying to sue him through something that was.
Speaker B:And that's the thing where now you're making distinction between a design and obviously a usability or the product itself, if it's a generalized thing, it really shouldn't stand up in a court of law because it's like saying, I control the word pest control, or I control the word golf, or I have a design pattern for golf balls.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So they won't let you register.
Speaker A:So understand you get a trademark as soon as you put something in commerce.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:What I do is help people get federally registered trademarks.
Speaker A:So that means that it's protected all over the United States, even if you're geographically limited to two or three states.
Speaker A:So it's very helpful, you know, if you want to grow.
Speaker A:There are issues with descriptive terms.
Speaker A:So I don't know the specifics of this case, but let's go with American Airlines.
Speaker B:It's descriptive.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's a descriptive.
Speaker A:But let's go with American Airlines.
Speaker A:That's purely descriptive.
Speaker B:It is.
Speaker A:It's an American airline.
Speaker A:And they can never stop Delta from ever saying, we are an American airline.
Speaker B:See, that's exactly, that's my, that was my point when I spoke to him about it.
Speaker B:How can you be sued for this when it is part of.
Speaker B:It's nationally known?
Speaker B:I mean, this is what you do.
Speaker B:This is, it's like pest control or it's like cleaning product, you know, cleaning company or something.
Speaker B:You know, I'm cleaning.
Speaker A:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker B:It's like, this is what I don't get.
Speaker B:And through the case, obviously they've come to some kind of arrangement.
Speaker B:I'm not allowed to know about that.
Speaker B:But I don't see how it got so far.
Speaker B:How it got to the point.
Speaker B:It got.
Speaker B:Because it was descriptive.
Speaker B:Well, is it a descriptive case?
Speaker A:I mean, there's so many variables when it comes to court.
Speaker A:I, I think I told you.
Speaker A:You ever find I don't go to court, if you've seen me in a courtroom, bring bail money because I'm in trouble.
Speaker B:So the, a lawyer that don't like going to court,.
Speaker A:I just write term papers.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:Administrative order for people.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:But you, you know how it works.
Speaker A:I mean, sometimes it, you know, I tell people all the time, like, look, we could be 100, right.
Speaker A:But it's America and everyone has a God given right to sue here.
Speaker B:That's true.
Speaker B:And that's what's well known for America.
Speaker B:Like in America you could get sued.
Speaker A:Yeah, right.
Speaker A:And you have to protect yourself.
Speaker A:You have to go out and pay it.
Speaker A:Now a lot of times people are just like, it's not worth it.
Speaker A:I'm just gonna pay the whatever they want, make them go away, do whatever they want.
Speaker A:Because I just don't want to deal with going to court.
Speaker A:Because let me tell you, court, going to court stinks.
Speaker A:Like, I mean, I, you know, I've done very little of it, but you know, the stuff that I've dealt with.
Speaker A:Nah, I try to keep my clients out of court.
Speaker A:I'm like, you sure you want to do this?
Speaker A:You know, because sometimes you get involved with someone, you know, what's that old saying like, you can't play with a pig because you're bound to get dirty.
Speaker B:Absolutely true.
Speaker B:And I speak to a lot of expert witnesses who are part of our community and I'm amazed at my name to say, like, you know.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Even in depositions, dude, this is, it's hairy at times.
Speaker B:You know, you're getting cross examined and you know, you need to.
Speaker B:Not everybody's ready for it.
Speaker B:You need to be prepared for it, you know.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I mean, my understanding, being an expert, it's not just, hey, I'm really good in my area.
Speaker A:It's the ability to take personal salts.
Speaker A:Someone just being rude to you for eight hours for no reason, I know, might be the nicest person in the world, but they're just going to let you have it because they're trying to get under your skin, make you say something that they can use.
Speaker A:So I mean, you know, a lot of people say experts get paid too much.
Speaker A:But you know, part of it is that's why.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:They have to be good at it.
Speaker A:And it takes a toll on you.
Speaker A:Like, I mean, I know experts that do it and they say, you know, sit in that room and just having your integrity attacked, constant.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:And it is heavy going and, and I understand that.
Speaker B:So I, I understand why you don't want to go to court.
Speaker B:But it is quite funny with a lawyer that don't want to go to court.
Speaker A:Well, you know what I know.
Speaker A:I mean, even trial attorneys, like, it's funny they a lot of times and you, you know, granted, we're not talking about trials and stuff, but it's been my experience that you go on a trial attorneys like, yeah, we're going to nail them to the wall.
Speaker A:But as soon as they find out the case is a little difficult, like we don't know how it's gonna go,.
Speaker B:It's gonna change dramatically.
Speaker A:Like maybe we should settle.
Speaker A:And you know, I, I think a lot of people don't want to go to court because.
Speaker A:And then the other part is the outcome.
Speaker A:Like you could just have a judge who decides, you know, especially with patent cases sometimes very few judges or lawyers for that matter, and who become judges.
Speaker A:Ever went to engineering school?
Speaker B:No.
Speaker B:That's true.
Speaker B:Does any of your cases ever go, I mean.
Speaker B:No, you don't like going to court.
Speaker B:But in the patent world, is there a lot of kind of cases that end up going into trial?
Speaker A:Probably not too many.
Speaker B:That's interesting.
Speaker A:Yeah, I mean I've had client go to court and that continuation practice was used against him.
Speaker A:So basically it was kind of like every time he would fix something, they would go out and get a new patent.
Speaker B:Okay, Right.
Speaker A:And I, I have to say in that case, the examiner at the patent office was not doing their job well.
Speaker A:But you still have to deal with an issued government document at this point.
Speaker B:That's another thing that begs a question.
Speaker B:Where he patent that's going through the office, the people that are dealing with it don't necessarily understand the mechanics of it, the engine, as you mentioned, the engineering of it, or even the design.
Speaker B:So how could they?
Speaker B:I mean they're not an expert in.
Speaker A:It, so actually they are.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker B:Really?
Speaker A:Well, yeah.
Speaker A:So basically the way it works.
Speaker A:So I used to be a patent examiner and generally the day you start, you start in an area and you work under.
Speaker A:People have been in that area forever and then you work only in that.
Speaker B:Area and that, so you have expertise in that field.
Speaker B:So you wouldn't, you wouldn't necessarily have a patent come in for say a door opening system if you didn't deal with Doors.
Speaker B:You might be dealing with air conditioning units or something.
Speaker B:So you'd be exact.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So they are very much, very specialized.
Speaker A:But the issue is, is like, you know, I tell my clients, While there's one US patent office, there's really like 9,000, because each patent examiner is their own patent office.
Speaker A:And you can just understand anything when you're dealing with that vast population of people.
Speaker A:It's not standard.
Speaker A:I mean, they tries to be standardized as much as possible, and sometimes you have to go in the appeal board, but you get an exam or you're stuck with that examiner.
Speaker A:And, you know, through 25 years dealing with this, I've met great examiners.
Speaker A:I've met good examiners, met, you know, examiners, you know, kind of.
Speaker A:And then I've met, you know, dealt with some.
Speaker A:And I'm like, I don't understand what is going on here.
Speaker A:And so those typically have to go into appeal.
Speaker A:But, you know, a lot of times, I mean, there are patent examiners out there who pride themselves on not allowing a single patent.
Speaker B:Well, really?
Speaker B:Really?
Speaker B:That's.
Speaker B:That's a bit.
Speaker B:That's naughty.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker B:Surely.
Speaker A:I almost think that that has.
Speaker A:I. I can't believe the office doesn't do something about that, because that's literally ego.
Speaker A:And at the end of the day.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I mean, that's a bias.
Speaker A:That's a bias against the law.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And then what?
Speaker A:Your client is paying you every time you file a response, and you might be 100% right.
Speaker A:And then you have to go to an appeal board.
Speaker A:You have to do all this.
Speaker A:And the weird part about the appeal board, they don't issue patents.
Speaker A:So you go on an appeal board, you win the appeal, they can come back with a different rejection, and it can be just as bad as the first one.
Speaker B:So you might be fighting to get your patent approved for years.
Speaker A:Can.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker B:Hi.
Speaker B:If you are a legal expert or an expert witness and you would like to join our exclusive legal community, then connect with me on Help Lawyer, and let's have a conversation.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:So, Austin, is it worth a company doing it then?
Speaker B:I mean, really, if there's so many hurdles.
Speaker B:And also, I want to get into the point of, you know, let's look at international law, and let's look at.
Speaker B:If I invent something now, I get it patented in the States, but the rest of the world, you could be screwed over.
Speaker B:So what is the point of any company out there just coming to you?
Speaker B:Austin said, austin, I've got this invention.
Speaker B:I want to patent it.
Speaker B:I've Got this design, I want to patent it.
Speaker B:What is the point of them doing that?
Speaker A:Well, I mean, big guys do it for a reason.
Speaker A:They don't just love.
Speaker A:People don't love wasting money.
Speaker B:No, exactly.
Speaker A:So, I mean, the values there, I mean, it gives you breathing room.
Speaker A:It scares away a lot of people.
Speaker B:So it's a psychological barrier really, more than anything.
Speaker A:No, not always.
Speaker A:I mean, sometimes you, hey, you're infringing my patent.
Speaker A:Here you go, take a look at it.
Speaker A:And then they move off.
Speaker A:So, okay, I mean, it has the weight of law.
Speaker A:And if you, if you can prove that they willfully infringe your patent, it.
Speaker B:Will go to court or whatever.
Speaker B:Yeah, you're going to have a problem.
Speaker A:Damages, you'll get triple damages.
Speaker B:Oh, really?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Okay, so it is.
Speaker B:So there is value.
Speaker B:So if you listen to ladies and gentlemen, and you're, you have a business and you have an idea and there is value in patenting this to protect you, not only from, but even internally, not.
Speaker B:Because obviously.
Speaker B:This is my other question then, Austin, is how do we deal with the violations of an international level?
Speaker B:As we know China, you come up with an idea, China's going to come out with it and they're going to do something the same.
Speaker B:I mean, we see it in Apple products and other bags we talked about.
Speaker B:I don't want what they're called bags, but, you know, how do you deal with that?
Speaker A:Well, let me go back to a little bit, to the other one too.
Speaker A:So I don't really watch the show, but I've seen it enough like Shark Tank and I tell you.
Speaker B:Right, right, right.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, you got a business.
Speaker A:What's the first two things they ask you?
Speaker A:What's your revenue?
Speaker A:And do you have intellectual property?
Speaker A:Because investors, businesses, if you have an exit plan, a patent adds value to your business if your business is thriving.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Okay, so is a patent then part of intellectual property?
Speaker B:And so therefore, how do we define intellectual property?
Speaker A:It's an abstract property.
Speaker A:I mean, at the end of the day, it's saying that idea is mine.
Speaker A:But you're, you know, you have a government issued monopoly for that amount of time, and if you want to enforce it, you can.
Speaker A:I mean, the story of the Wright brothers, though, they went after everyone who was infringing their idea internationally as well?
Speaker A:No, just us.
Speaker A:So, so when we're talking about international stuff, we can move on to that.
Speaker A:So internationally, you, you know, you take pharmaceuticals, they get a patent in every single country there is.
Speaker B:So they actually get one for every country, different patent okay, right.
Speaker B:That's huge.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:And they use the patent cooperation treaty process to do that, which enables.
Speaker A:So originally it was within a year of filing in your home country, had a year to file in every other country if you wanted to.
Speaker A:But that was just laborious too much.
Speaker A:What they did is they came out with a pct.
Speaker A:And whether you file it at the beginning or within a year, your initial filing, it gives you a total of 30 months to file in all these countries because you have to find local counsel and you got to do all this stuff.
Speaker A:Granted, these pharmaceutical guys already have it down to science, you know, because that's the big one.
Speaker A:But you know what I tell my clients and generally they're on the small to medium size and independent vendors.
Speaker A:If you're really worried about international protection, the best way to invent, depending upon your product, if it's something that's manufactured, patent it in the manufacturing centers.
Speaker B:Skip eu.
Speaker A:The EU is very expensive.
Speaker A:Right, right.
Speaker A:And difficult.
Speaker A:They are a huge pain.
Speaker A:They don't appreciate patents like we do.
Speaker A:Yeah, we've seen it as a means doing, even though it's got a, it's got a negative connotation for 20 years.
Speaker A:How dare you keep this away from these people.
Speaker A:Like, you know, especially medicine, you know, that pill only cost 30 cents to make and it's like, well, the first one cost 3 billion, right.
Speaker A:So that's kind of the, without the return on investment, no one's going to invest in research.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:But if you have a manufactured product of this kind of stuff, patent in the manufacturing centers, so get a patent in China and Vietnam or India, wherever.
Speaker B:You manufacture that, you get it there and then that then in a competitive.
Speaker A:Sense you're better off in the eu.
Speaker A:So someone in Germany might be able to make it in Germany, but you're going to beat them in the price point.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:And you know, the, the protection in those countries is not as robust, but it's better than it has been and there's a chance that you can stop them.
Speaker A:Some of the fastest growing sector of millionaires in China at least it was like 10 years ago.
Speaker A:Or patent attorneys.
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker A:I didn't know they were enforcing patents.
Speaker A:Yeah, they start like the government really started.
Speaker A:Like they saw it, they realized they.
Speaker B:Saw the good coming out.
Speaker A:Yeah, they saw the good coming out.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:And you know, and a lot of patents come out of Asia, so they're like, well, we gotta start protecting this stuff.
Speaker A:So yeah, that's kind of how it works.
Speaker A:So my thought was, you know, I'm a Dune fan, he who controls the spice, controls the universe.
Speaker A:So if you control manufacturing, you can pretty much control it around the country, around the world.
Speaker A:If you can't afford to patent in all these other countries.
Speaker B:Yeah, that makes sense, actually, to do it from manufacturing.
Speaker B:So with the patent side of things, literally, can you patent anything?
Speaker B:Because here's my thing.
Speaker B:You've mentioned that a couple of times.
Speaker B:You've mentioned it's an idea.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So then essentially I should be patent anything that's an idea if it's going to come into a product.
Speaker B:And even.
Speaker B:Can you patent a service?
Speaker A:No, you can patent a method.
Speaker B:So a method.
Speaker A:So here's the deal.
Speaker A:This is kind of where it's kind of gone off a little bit.
Speaker A:So you cannot patent an abstract, total abstract idea.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:So the.
Speaker A:Basically the easy.
Speaker A:So all these apps and software and all this other kind of stuff.
Speaker B:Right, that's my.
Speaker A:Yeah, that went away with this decision called the ALICE decision and its progeny since then.
Speaker A:And basically what it is, it killed the software.
Speaker A:But you never really could patent software.
Speaker A:But what they would write is computer executable method on a computer.
Speaker A:So basically like memory, you got that.
Speaker A:That was your physical object.
Speaker A:And then the Supreme Court now has said, well, we're not going to allow trickery to get around this prohibition of patenting abstract ideas and the whole point of the abstract idea.
Speaker A:And I think the easiest way to explain it, because, man, it's still.
Speaker A:It's still evolving, and it is painful.
Speaker A:The courts are all over the place trying to define this.
Speaker A:They're begging the Supreme Court to clarify this.
Speaker A:And the Supreme Court's like, we.
Speaker A:Yeah, but the easiest way I try to explain it to me is someone is like, you know, you know, we've seen Rain Man.
Speaker A:And I'm like, if Rain man could do it in his head, if he could take information, process it and spit out an output, you can't patent it.
Speaker B:You can't pattern it.
Speaker A:You cannot.
Speaker A:So think of it this way.
Speaker A:What are apps?
Speaker A:Most apps are bringing in input, process it, spit out.
Speaker B:Well, that's true.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And it's coming from, you know, input from an idea that comes from an individual who then develops the program or develops it.
Speaker B:And then.
Speaker A:Well, I mean, like the function of an app, like you put in Yelp, I want food.
Speaker A:It goes in it processes it looks for that type of restaurant, and then compares it to a database and spits out a bunch of options.
Speaker B:Well, what about Austin, A framework.
Speaker B:And I'm thinking this particularly, even, like, I'm going To end in my case.
Speaker B:So what about a framework of a psychological process?
Speaker B:You develop a framework for a particular field.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So let's say in psychology, it could be.
Speaker B:Look, grief.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So I work in the field in psychology and grief.
Speaker B:So you develop a new framework to deal with an aspect of that emotion or that thing.
Speaker B:So your new framework, is that framework potentially able to be patented?
Speaker B:Well, I mean, you mentioned a method.
Speaker B:So if you create a method, psychological, your idea, and you create a method to develop a framework, can you patent that framework?
Speaker A:It would have to have some physicality to it, like the user has to jump off a building or, you know, do exercise or, you know, do these certain things.
Speaker A:There's a possibility doing that.
Speaker A:I mean, we're getting into that weird area.
Speaker A:I don't want to be definitive on it.
Speaker B:You know, you're wondering what the CIA is.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker B:PsyOps.
Speaker A:Well, I do know.
Speaker A:The.
Speaker A:The weird one was, is that the mo.
Speaker A:The latest patents legislation said you cannot patent.
Speaker A:What was it?
Speaker A:Tax avoidance schemes.
Speaker A:All right, because that's a method.
Speaker A:You move your money to a third country, let it sit there, you change it to this.
Speaker A:You know, people were trying to do that for.
Speaker A:But, you know, I've had people come up to me and talk to me like, you know, and I just always use Tony Robbins as the example.
Speaker A:Like this guy.
Speaker B:I was going to mention him.
Speaker B:Him and Dean Graziosi, because they have methods.
Speaker B:Yeah, that I won.
Speaker B:I don't know if they are.
Speaker B:I wonder if their methods from Tony and Dean is patented.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:They're probably not.
Speaker A:So kind of like, if you have that kind of program or what I tell people is if they're trying to develop those kind of programs, try to come up with modules, trademark, the name of the module.
Speaker A:So people can't come out and say, I'm using whatever Tony Robbins would call his system.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:System.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:They, you know, they may be able to compare it to that system, but you can't protect the knowledge.
Speaker A:And then when he writes a book, it's covered by copyright.
Speaker A:It's not covered by patent.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker A:So what you try to do is you try to say, hey, this module or this system is called this, and.
Speaker B:Then you trademark that.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And you don't have to have super protection there.
Speaker A:So it makes it hard for others to piggyback on your method that you've come up with.
Speaker B:Okay, right.
Speaker B:That makes sense.
Speaker B:What's the weirdest thing you've had, Austin?
Speaker B:What's the weirdest case that they wanted.
Speaker A:To patent the Weirdest thing.
Speaker A:You know, it's kind of one of these things.
Speaker A:People are like, what's the patent you're most proud of?
Speaker A:Like, where do you.
Speaker A:And I'm like, you know, when someone comes up to you, a very complex idea and it's very novel.
Speaker A:It's difficult to write it all up and put together.
Speaker A:But that's not where I think skill is truly exhibited.
Speaker B:Right, right.
Speaker A:I was able to patent for a client of mine, it was a stick, a hollow.
Speaker A:At least had a hollow section.
Speaker A:A stick with a hole in it with the front part.
Speaker A:And I apologize in advance, I'm about to get the delivery.
Speaker B:But that's all right.
Speaker B:You can get.
Speaker B:We can pause it.
Speaker B:So my editor, at this point, you can edit this out.
Speaker A:Okay, great.
Speaker A:Sorry.
Speaker A:I've been waiting for this thing for a week and all of a sudden it's coming right at the worst.
Speaker B:Go get it.
Speaker B:Go together.
Speaker B:He can edit it.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker A:Oh, files.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Sorry about that.
Speaker B:Oh, no problem.
Speaker B:I've marked it.
Speaker B:He can edit it out.
Speaker B:Okay, cool.
Speaker B:So, yeah, you were telling me about the weirdest.
Speaker B:It was a stick.
Speaker B:Oh, yeah.
Speaker A:So basically it was like, I think I would just.
Speaker A:At the end of the day, the prototype was a PVC pipe.
Speaker A:And then it had a hole in the.
Speaker A:In the front of it, towards the front.
Speaker A:And basically what it was, this guy was trying to find a way to.
Speaker B:To.
Speaker A:He didn't like how Swiffers and stuff like that were being thrown away.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:So he's like, I'm going to make something you can use cloth for.
Speaker A:So it was basically, I was able to patent for him a PVC pipe with like a little bit of hole on the side so you could pull the little rag through, and that was that.
Speaker A:So I was able to patent that.
Speaker A:And, you know, I think that's where kind of like, what are you proud of?
Speaker A:How do you do that?
Speaker A:I'm like, well, you know, that's, you.
Speaker B:Know, I'm proud of that.
Speaker B:PVC pipe with a hole.
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker A:I got that an issued patent.
Speaker A:And you know, people look at you like you're crazy.
Speaker A:And I'm like, well, well, I mean,.
Speaker B:I'm saying, you thinking as well, like, what a PVC with a hold.
Speaker B:Now that, that, that is a little bit kind of crazy idea.
Speaker B:But the fact that you got it patterned, because I'm expecting you to say, you know what, There was this guy and he invented this thing and it did this and it did that, and it was all the PVC pipe with a hole.
Speaker A:Anyone can I Mean, if you're in, I mean, sometimes, you know, it's kind of one of those.
Speaker A:What's the old saying, you know, if you have the facts, argue the facts.
Speaker A:You have the law, argue the law.
Speaker A:If you have neither, slam the table.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So it's, you know, if you've got great facts, it's the case does itself.
Speaker A:You don't, I mean, you don't do anything.
Speaker A:I mean, you just don't screw it up, I guess would kind of be the, you know, thing on that.
Speaker A:But when you have something that's kind of simplistic and easy, you know, when you think of, you know, and to go out there and argue that this is patentable over the prior art.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker B:So I'm thinking about that.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So that was strangely a piece of pipe with a hole in it.
Speaker B:You must have to really get into the nitty gritty of understanding something to patent it.
Speaker B:So if someone comes to you with a method or someone comes to you with a product that they've developed, how deep.
Speaker B:I mean, there must be an immense amount of work that you have to do to get to understand that, how it works, what the output is, the data that goes, anything.
Speaker B:I mean, is that essentially a fair assumption that that's something that you have to do?
Speaker A:Yeah, I mean I explained to the client that, you know, at the end of the day they, I, I'm taking their ideas and put it out on paper.
Speaker A:So it's a collaborative approach, you know.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:So they have to, I'm again, what do I do for a living?
Speaker A:I write term papers.
Speaker A:So I write their term papers for them.
Speaker A:But they have to confirm that everything's in there.
Speaker A:And you know.
Speaker B:You're doing my homework.
Speaker A:Yeah, I'm doing their homework for them.
Speaker A:So you know, and I try to, you know.
Speaker A:One of the things though is, you know, when you're writing patents and same thing with all law, you.
Speaker A:There's a reason why we write things almost a sound complicated to understand.
Speaker B:Right, Yeah, I can get that, obviously.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And so with patents, you know, generally the thing is, is that you want to write.
Speaker A:I sometimes tell people the hardest part of my job is coming up with names of the elements because you call it a screw.
Speaker A:Screw is very limiting.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:So you have to call it a different.
Speaker B:You have to come up with a name.
Speaker B:You have to come up with an idea like a low leveled, pressurized, turning left type screw.
Speaker A:Well, or you just say a fastener or wearing the fast.
Speaker A:But for a lot of parts you try to.
Speaker A:What's the broadest element that you can use to name it so that it can cover a lot.
Speaker A:But when you get very specific into what things are, then you just.
Speaker A:The name of itself can give you limitations.
Speaker B:Do you ever have people come to you, Austin, and say, I want to patent this, and you look at it and you go, no chance.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker B:You're not going to pattern that.
Speaker B:And how do you deal with that individual?
Speaker B:Do you have to explain it to them?
Speaker B:Would it be that, look, this is not unique.
Speaker B:This is there, and you're not going to be able to do it?
Speaker B:Well, I would expect someone with a pipe with a hole in it to be able to turn around and say, you can't patent that.
Speaker A:Well, we did a prior art search.
Speaker A:We didn't find any.
Speaker A:So there are times where I'm like, in my personal capacity of what I know and my former experience as an examiner and dealing with examiners, this is not going to be patent.
Speaker A:But wow.
Speaker A:Unless I specifically.
Speaker A:And then too, when I.
Speaker A:When I tell them that, I'm like, look, I kind of gave you a negative answer.
Speaker A:I don't want you relying on my opinion on that.
Speaker A:Go talk to another patent attorney.
Speaker A:Now, if another patent attorney is saying, there's no problem with this, bring up what I brought up and see what they say.
Speaker A:Because, you know, sometimes people want your money more than they want to get you a bad.
Speaker B:Yeah, so.
Speaker A:And, you know, don't call those 800 services.
Speaker A:No, don't.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker A:So, you know, we do a priority search.
Speaker A:If something doesn't come up, I can't.
Speaker A:Like I said, I've been able to get a patent on something like that.
Speaker A:So sometimes there's space that we wouldn't think would be there because we just think it's too simple of an idea, but it might actually be out there.
Speaker B:Bloody hell.
Speaker B:This has been fascinating.
Speaker B:If you're a lawyer, then I invite you to consider joining our exclusive legal network on Help Lawyer.
Speaker B:Just send me a message and we will book a time to have a private conversation together.
Speaker B:Actually, there's a lot of things that you don't think about in terms of, you know, starting a business or even your ideas or your methods, anything to do with that.
Speaker B:Are you the trademarks people?
Speaker B:Would you say then that really anybody who's starting a business should be thinking along the lines of trademarks and patents straight away as an investment, as part of even the setup.
Speaker A:Definitely trademark.
Speaker A:Because you definitely kind of.
Speaker A:I mean, you spend all this time building up goodwill on your product and all stuff, and you Want to do a name change that can cost you a lot of money.
Speaker A:If we could secure your name early in the process, then you feel comfortable, you know, building that brand.
Speaker A:When it comes to patents, I mean, I tell people, the first thing I tell someone is when they call is like, you do not need a patent to make money.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:I mean, look around your house.
Speaker A:Most of that stuff you pay good money for doesn't have a patent, doesn't.
Speaker B:Have a patent on it.
Speaker A:Two, a patent in and of itself generally will not make you money money.
Speaker A:Know, a lot of people think that they're going to go to, I'm going to patent this, I'm going to approach a big company and they're going to love it.
Speaker A:I'm like, well, that really doesn't happen as often as you think.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:So you got your strategy.
Speaker A:What you hope for is that that landmine eventually catches someone at some point, and you can go up to them and say, hey, you violated my patent.
Speaker A:I want a royalty.
Speaker A:And so, yeah, that's it.
Speaker A:You know, basically, where the patent adds value is, one, if you have it, it gives you space and time to develop your product, to see there's a market for it.
Speaker B:Well, it's testing the market, essentially as well.
Speaker A:Yeah, it gives you time for that.
Speaker A:And then two, like, you need a business.
Speaker A:What I tell people is like, you.
Speaker A:You need a business plan to monetize your idea.
Speaker B:Yeah, I.
Speaker A:Businesses already do this, but this is more independent vendors.
Speaker A:And then your patent's worth a lot of money if you show proof of concept.
Speaker A:That's when businesses just come in and are like, we're willing to pay a premium because you've shown that there's a market for this.
Speaker A:You know, that's where.
Speaker B:So that was, that was the other thing I wanted to talk.
Speaker B:And I mean, and we're coming up to an hour, but do you mind going over.
Speaker B:You're all right.
Speaker A:Not at all all right.
Speaker B:Yeah, because I think I want to get any trademarks and stuff like that as well.
Speaker B:So can people then come at you and have a patent, patent a product?
Speaker B:Do they sell the product or do they say, you know what?
Speaker B:I'm going to sell this patent because this patent has value.
Speaker B:Or how does that work?
Speaker A:Well, I kind of equate it to, like when, say your patent's kind of like a bank account.
Speaker A:When you get the patent, it's an empty bank account.
Speaker A:So when you build the product, you start a market, you show that it's marketable, it starts adding value to that bank account.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:And then someone might buy you just for that patent, but they'll probably buy you because you now have brand recognition.
Speaker A:You have, you know, all this other kind of stuff.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker B:So then they would search.
Speaker B:So they would sell the.
Speaker B:Not so much the brand, but they would sell the product as.
Speaker B:As the patent.
Speaker A:Well, they'd sell the product or they just buy your whole company.
Speaker A:And because you.
Speaker A:You're buying your.
Speaker A:They're buying everything.
Speaker A:They're like, hey, I have a working business.
Speaker A:I mean, you hear it all the time.
Speaker B:Like, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:You know, somebody acquired this guy and it was because they had a good idea.
Speaker A:They want to incorporate it into their main business, but they're not going to do that.
Speaker A:It's easier for them to do that than start off.
Speaker A:They're like, you know, you guys go out and figure out what works, and then we'll just buy the ones that we want later.
Speaker A:At a premium.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Okay, so let's talk a little bit about trademarks then, because that's obviously different to patents.
Speaker B:I mean, yeah, there can be a little bit of an overlap, especially if it's to do with a design patent with the Louis Vuitton bag.
Speaker B:That's what I was thinking about.
Speaker B:How important then are trademarks?
Speaker B:Because most of the businesses out there nowadays, they may not have a patent for a product or a methodology.
Speaker B:But let's talk about an idea for business.
Speaker B:People will save your trademark, then what does that really mean for them?
Speaker B:And is that something that every entrepreneur should be looking at?
Speaker A:Well, ask all the ladies what Louis Vuitton means.
Speaker B:Oh, he's a good one.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I mean, you're like, well, they will, you know, they'll spend so much money on a bag.
Speaker A:And you're like, yeah, it's.
Speaker B:I don't.
Speaker B:My wife likes coach.
Speaker B:Little coach bags.
Speaker B:And I'm like, what's the point?
Speaker B:Like, you know, and like, I don't mean nothing to me.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:But then again, you see, I, I can value it because, like, I being an ex soldier and stuff like that, and I wear a particular tactical watch.
Speaker B:Yeah, right.
Speaker B:Why?
Speaker B:Because, well, it's.
Speaker B:It's not a patent, but it's the brand that I recognize.
Speaker B:And my fellow guys use that brand.
Speaker B:And so that's.
Speaker B:That's.
Speaker B:I get that from that point of view.
Speaker A:Well, and that's the thing.
Speaker A:It serves two purposes.
Speaker A:I mean, again, you buy that watch because you identify as a source of goods.
Speaker A:That source of goods, you know, is a good watch, and it's going to work.
Speaker A:And it's going to, you know, you know, a certain quality that comes out of that.
Speaker A:And then there's other things like, hey, it's a shirt.
Speaker A:I mean, all the shirts are made by the same companies, Vietnam and China.
Speaker A:There's not like all this very.
Speaker B:Just got a.
Speaker B:They just got a different logo on it or a different trademark on it.
Speaker A:Literally screen print a popular logo name or trademark name and the value of that shirt goes up 60 bucks.
Speaker B:That's crazy.
Speaker B:So there's, there's value as well to your trademark.
Speaker B:It's not just about your logo.
Speaker B:So there's.
Speaker B:So let's people out there, because I know there's going to be people that are going to be listening to this that are not lawyers.
Speaker B:We do have lawyers that listen to it.
Speaker B:But there's going to be people that are in business that are interested.
Speaker B:What kind of things does the trademark cover?
Speaker B:It's not.
Speaker B:Because until talking to you, I'm thinking trademark, it's the logo, it's the name.
Speaker B:But obviously from what you're saying, this is actually a lot more than just a logo and a name.
Speaker A:It is.
Speaker A:I mean, it is.
Speaker A:Well, I mean, generally it's just the logo or the.
Speaker A:And or the name.
Speaker A:So you, you get a word mark, you get a stylized mark, which is generally logos, you know, but there's other things you can do too, like trade dress.
Speaker A:So, you know, another woman's product is those shoes with the red soles.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah, that's a trademark.
Speaker A:That's an identification of source of goods.
Speaker B:So, yeah, right.
Speaker A:Women spend a lot of money on their shoes.
Speaker A:But the, it really is just the name and the logo.
Speaker A:And as far as trademark, registering that trademark or putting a trademark out there, that name and that logo needs to be distinctive, at least in that area.
Speaker A:So you could have Arco Oil and Arco Seafood and there wouldn't be in competition because no one would confuse the two.
Speaker A:But if they're in the same area, you need distinctiveness such that there's no confusion.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And yeah, it's just logos.
Speaker A:Is your logo confused with another logo or is your name confused with the likelihood of confusion or descriptive or these kind of things?
Speaker A:But that's generally the two biggest test.
Speaker B:What's the benefits to a small business or an entrepreneur to trademark his brand and his whatever?
Speaker B:Well, what is the benefit?
Speaker A:You hope.
Speaker A:You're constantly building two registering it and you need interstate sales before you can technically get a registered trademark.
Speaker A:But once you have a registered trademark, and as long as that, it's uncontested for a certain number of years.
Speaker A:A Johnny come lately can't take your name.
Speaker A:So you now you know, you're free of ever having to deal with that.
Speaker B:And does this have any international restrictions or have you trademarked something in the States?
Speaker B:Is it protected in the UK or does someone have to go through trademark in the uk, if that's a thing.
Speaker A:So the trademark process, they've actually got a.
Speaker A:It's pretty.
Speaker A:They've made it a lot easier to do international trademarks.
Speaker A:It's expensive.
Speaker A:But they have this thing called the Madrid Protocol which enables your U.S. attorney to file and register in these foreign countries.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:But if there's an issue, you generally need to get local counsel.
Speaker A:But if there's no issue and they just allow it, it's considered registered, you know, people can't use it.
Speaker A:And then you have also other things and trademarks.
Speaker A:So it's not really even.
Speaker A:I, I don't know if it's technically trademark law, but take champagne.
Speaker A:You can't make champagne in the United States.
Speaker B:I didn't know that.
Speaker A:No, champagne can only come from champagne area of France.
Speaker A:I guess it is or something.
Speaker B:Really?
Speaker B:I didn't know that.
Speaker B:Honestly, I really didn't know that.
Speaker B:So that's a new one to me.
Speaker B:That's why I think that whiskey then should just be coming from Scotland.
Speaker B:So that's because I'm biased.
Speaker A:You're going to argue with those guys in Tennessee.
Speaker B:A lot of the distilleries over there are actually owned by foreign companies now, which is a damn shame.
Speaker B:Let me ask you this as well then, Austin.
Speaker B:Is there a psychological benefit for someone trademarking their business not only just for them, but for people in perception of the business?
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:I mean, you have an R with a circle.
Speaker A:You know, I don't know if it changes my idea when I'm purchasing something.
Speaker A:It just, you know, it's, it's ability to protect your brand.
Speaker A:And we're constantly trying to build brand and trust with our customers.
Speaker A:So, you know, you hope that by having it registered you don't have an issue in the future of someone, you know, and confusing using your name.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And the thing is, is like say you have a registered trademark.
Speaker A:I think you almost have to get.
Speaker A:So now take Amazon, right.
Speaker A:In order to do products or get a store on there, you literally, I believe, have to apply for a trademark Mark.
Speaker B:Yeah, you have to go through hoops.
Speaker A:And they monitor, yeah, they monitor if that trademark is getting allowed or not.
Speaker B:So if you say, hey, they're even getting harder in all aspects of.
Speaker B:I know one of the clients, I look after that scientist, the toxicologist that I work with, he'll have people that will come to him and they want to sell their products in the US So they want to sell them on Amazon and they even have to have scientific reports on the products.
Speaker A:Well, yeah, I mean I think Amazon was getting hammered there for a while.
Speaker A:That's the other thing too.
Speaker A:Like, you know, patent suits are very expensive.
Speaker A:Amazon has a process that if you have a patent and the rules are pretty restrictive so it's not a trial where you can get people kicked off.
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker A:For, hey, I have this patent and you're selling a patented product, you go and you go to a neutral.
Speaker A:And they find supposedly very experienced patent attorneys to review documents from both sides and make a decision to kick one off.
Speaker A:But I will say, I will say I'm surprised there's not going to be a class action suit or something because I get.
Speaker A:People call me typically around September, August and September, they're like, I just got kicked off Amazon.
Speaker A:I don't even know why is that.
Speaker B:Coming into the Christmas season?
Speaker B:Like the whole of the season.
Speaker A:The Christmas.
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker A:That's exactly why.
Speaker A:And you know, Christmas is over.
Speaker A:And they're like, oh yeah, I was misunderstanding.
Speaker B:Ah, that's quite sneaky actually when you think about it.
Speaker A:Because it's probably a lawyer behind it, you know.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker B:Austin, this has been a fantastic conversation.
Speaker B:I never thought there was so much involved in intellectual property.
Speaker B:I think there's probably still even more that we haven't even covered in intellectual property.
Speaker A:I was going to say I think we just blown it out.
Speaker A:I think that's about all this is as interesting as it gets.
Speaker A:No, it does.
Speaker B:But you know, and it seems to be big business as well.
Speaker B:I mean obviously patent.
Speaker B:It's not just for, for, for products, but even methodologies and everything else.
Speaker B:It really.
Speaker B:And I didn't realize it was so huge in the pharmaceutical industry, so I can imagine so because I worked in high risk security and I was involved in when Pfizer's invented Viagra.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Because there was, and obviously there was lawyers.
Speaker B:Everything went all over the world.
Speaker B:There was risk assessments, all sorts of things.
Speaker B:But you don't really realize what goes into the intellectual property of something or a methodology.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And the weird part, and the one thing that the pharmaceutical company gets into is that they develop a product for one thing.
Speaker A:Take Botox.
Speaker A:Botox was originally, I think in like developed for the treatment of sweaty palms and in over sweating.
Speaker A:And then they realized it got rid of wrinkles.
Speaker A:So then they were able to take that product and then patent the use of wrinkles,.
Speaker B:See, with Viagra.
Speaker B:Viagra was a heart drug.
Speaker A:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker B:And what happened was the scientists were in that day and saw that the animal that was testing on had, you know, had an erection and they went, wow.
Speaker B:And then obviously, now you've got a new product.
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker A:Well, that was the same thing with Propecia.
Speaker A:The hair thing.
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker A:Prostcar, which is used to treat prostate issues.
Speaker B:Now, do you deal with patents with, like, beauty products and stuff like that as well?
Speaker A:Not really.
Speaker B:Is that difficult?
Speaker A:If it's chemistry, I stay away from it.
Speaker A:I passed that class, you know, freshman year.
Speaker A:I was done.
Speaker A:I never want to go through it again.
Speaker A:I mean, the big thing is, is that, you know, cosmic.
Speaker A:The weird thing about mixtures, I mean, it's like recipes, for the most part, in order to get a patent on a recipe or, you know, you know, a mixture of products show some synergy that wasn't known.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:So you know how they always put, I think, K with milk in order to enhance the calcium uptake?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:You'd have to find something that someone didn't know.
Speaker A:So when you put those things together, you know that you have a benefit.
Speaker A:Now, you always hear that they have these patented formulas and stuff like that.
Speaker A:I don't know how that works with the supplement industry that much.
Speaker B:I was going to ask you about that as well, actually, because that's a rabbit hole to go down in the supplement industry.
Speaker B:They patent ginger with something else that's for this.
Speaker B:Testosterone.
Speaker B:There's a new product at the moment for testosterone, formula for men that's patented.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:But it doesn't seem any different to the other.
Speaker A:Well, they can show that the synergenic effect of something that they come up with, like, if it's what I always say, is it greater than the sum of its parts?
Speaker B:If you have a multiple, they add one thing into that recipe that changes the synergy of it.
Speaker B:That can be patented.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Because no one knew that.
Speaker A:I mean, technically, you've improved something that no one knew about and actually has a new effect.
Speaker B:Pardon my French, ladies and gentlemen, but holy shit.
Speaker A:Go.
Speaker B:That's crazy.
Speaker A:But I mean, there's research that goes into that, though.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:People need to be rewarded for that kind of stuff.
Speaker A:Of like, hey, I spent the time to figure out that if I had ginger to, you know, some kind of root, all of a sudden it boosts testosterone.
Speaker A:And no One Ever thought about that before?
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Austin, this has been a mind blower.
Speaker B:Tell everybody a little bit about your company, your legal practice, type of clients you like to work with, patents on trademarks and how they can get in touch with you.
Speaker A:Well, I pretty much love all my clients.
Speaker A:I mean it's.
Speaker B:Yeah, I really position.
Speaker A:Yeah, I mean, because, you know, a lot of times they're go getters and yeah, it's, you know, they're the ones making it work.
Speaker A:I love a good red ball, you know, like it's coming in hot.
Speaker A:They're making sales at the beginning.
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker A:You know, I just, I've been doing this for over 25 years.
Speaker A:I guess my one big claim is that over 700 US patents have my name on them.
Speaker B:Because really, 700?
Speaker A:Over 700.
Speaker A:Yeah, over 700 either as an examiner.
Speaker A:So I got.
Speaker A:And as a practitioner.
Speaker A:And the cool part of that is I've seen almost every major argument issue you're ever going to have with a patent application.
Speaker A:So that's where I think I excel.
Speaker A:But in any case, you can easily find me online bonder patents.
Speaker A:I'm the only patent attorney with that last name as far as I know.
Speaker B:It's easy to find them actually.
Speaker B:And it'll be linked in the show notes and everything else so you can connect with them.
Speaker B:And so anybody's looking for a trademark or a patent or even if it sounds weird, I mean, if you have got a piece of something with a hole in it, he can probably find it.
Speaker B:So if you've got an idea, then Austin is your man.
Speaker B:Austin, thank you for being with me on League of L. This has been awesome, actually.
Speaker B:I really enjoyed it.
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker A:Ty, man, I appreciate it.
Speaker B:I really, really enjoyed it.
Speaker B:And we're definitely going to have you back.
Speaker B:Hang on and we'll have a chat just afterwards.
Speaker B:Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for joining me on Legal Owl.
Speaker B:If you've got any questions, I mean, send it in.
Speaker B:I'll send it to Austin.
Speaker B:We'll get him involved.
Speaker B:Who knows, maybe we'll even have him do some kind of masterclass for people out here that are looking to develop their patents or something.
Speaker B:I did not realize that there was so much involved in this.
Speaker B:And so if you've got a question, then please send it into us.
Speaker B:And if you're an attorney that doesn't deal with patents, but you know, someone that needs it, then, you know, maybe you can.
Speaker B:Maybe you can share information.
Speaker B:Certainly any of our network members can share information with Austin.
Speaker B:Austin, thank you for being with me with Legal Oil.
Speaker B:This has been great.
Speaker B:Can't wait to have you back, guys.
Speaker B:Take care.
Speaker B:Thank you for joining us.
Speaker B:Stay tuned for the next episode.
Speaker B:We've got some great guests coming up and I've recently recorded one episode with a great guy, ex Vietnam veteran who ended up in jag, fought so many cases, even the feds up against the feds, murder cases that he was involved in, that's just a different story.
Speaker B:He's not here.
Speaker B:You're not doing it anymore.
Speaker B:But that's one that's coming up recently that we've just recorded as well.
Speaker B:And that was fantastic and it was a great honor to actually meet him.
Speaker B:Rand, big shout out to you, Rand Austin.
Speaker B:Going to be speaking to you very soon, my friend.
Speaker B:God bless.
Speaker A:Talk to you soon.
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